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Lendosan

BETA FEEDBACK - Assisting - Currently broken

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Situation: Character 1 needs help in making sure the Oni stays down. Characters 2, 3, 4 & 5 all assist. He has MA Melee 2, Fire 2.

"the character making the check rolls 1 additional Skill die per assisting character who has 1 or more ranks of the skill in use, and 1 additional Ring die per assisting character who has 0 ranks in the skill in use."

First off, no limit to the number of assistees that can lend help. So you could have four people assisting a character, two with used skill and two without. This means they get 2x Ring dice and 2x Skill dice.

"At the GM’s discretion, during Step 4: Apply Advantages and Disadvantages, up to one advantage from each assisting character can be applied to the check."

Granted this states GM's discretion, but it would be pretty naff if you reduce the effectiveness of the party because the rules aren't balanced yet.

"a character making a check with assistance may keep up to 1 additional die per assisting character."

Third the character then gets to keep four dice (essentially all the extra dice rolled). So currently rolling (old style) 4k4.

Finally "each assisting character may choose to suffer 1 strife to negate 1 strife result on the check."

So including explosive successes, this is an easy, easy way to abuse the system and just defeat something, or overcome something. I feel that their either needs to be a cap on the amount of dice kept, not rolled, kept with the half of the number of samurai assisting. 

The ```'K' value in L5R has ALWAYS been the game breaking number, it should be kept lower than the rolled die, or at worse case equal to.

Thoughts, opinioins?

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Posted (edited)

In your hypothetical... 2r2s k2 for the one character becomes, let's say half are skilled 4r4s k6 - 8k6.

The advantages are reroll up to 2 dice each, so up to 10 dice of rerolls.

I agree there needs to be a cap, and the best cap i can think of is the acting character's skill level. I wouldn't block more, but would make more than that not add to keep.

Edited by AK_Aramis

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I’d totally be cool with just one extra kept die, especially if assistants' advantages apply. 

 

Except maybe that messes with the arithmetic? Like are the party's chances of hitting TN 3 or 4 better if everyone just rolls separately? 

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I've not done the math on that sadly, as TN3-4 would be ridiculous for someone of a skill that wasn't close to that.  A GM should ensure that scaling occurs.

The reason for me saying that is, someone at a starter level using the assist system CAN hit someone of TN3-4 without scaling. I think that is the point I am making, especially when for certain rolls the number of successes is important.

I only noticed it because I was rolling 3 ring/4 skill keep 6 on the game I was playtesting the combat rules on, and the number of successes with opportunities was immense; too many in all honesty.

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Far more important than skill is ring - for Ring is how much you keep.

Skill 5 and Ring 1 is still not going to routinely succeed on TN3. At 6d, one can very reasonably comfortable about getting an explosion to keep; the second roll is 1d for an explosion needed; that's 1/6 chance either way. And then, there's either a 7/12 or 6/12 chance of getting the needed third.

Probability on 1dR+5dS of no explosives is ((5/6)^1)*((10/12)^5) = (5/6)^6 = .3346979767 or so.

So, 0.6653020233 * 0.166666666^2 = 0.01848061175833333

0.3% for  for TN4
1.8% for  TN 3
11.1% for TN 2
66.5% for TN 1

Strife can run from 0 — TN

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It still doesn't make sense or work correctly, I think the assisting needs to be capped to assure that experience and ability out trump assisting.

Someone at level 1 could better someone who was level 5+ with the correct number of assists. That doesn't make the game balanced, and basically means that you just need X number of players with the basic skills and then everyone else can assist bump the required player up.

Cap assisting!!

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yep, after reading assisting, it should be limited by rank, a pc should not be assisted by more than its rank other pcs/npcs

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On ‎03‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:09 AM, Lendosan said:

It still doesn't make sense or work correctly, I think the assisting needs to be capped to assure that experience and ability out trump assisting.

Someone at level 1 could better someone who was level 5+ with the correct number of assists. That doesn't make the game balanced, and basically means that you just need X number of players with the basic skills and then everyone else can assist bump the required player up.

Cap assisting!!

My response to that is: the GM should be fairly pragmatic about how many people can assist. Someone who is a rank 1 student with half a platoon of guys behind them being able to achieve the same sort of thing as a rank 5+ sensei can do on his or her own doesn't seem narratively that wrong to me.

Taking the example of gaining 2x Skill dice and 2 x Ring Dice, and increasing your keep limit by 4 - that's impressive, but it's because 5 people are attacking you at once and not making their own attack rolls.

However, just saying "I assist" doesn't magically mean the opportunity to assist exists. If you've got a bushi engaging a bandit with their sword, then a second samurai who can move into range can clearly assist. But at some point you must reach a stage where having extra people trying to engage the bandit is no longer providing additional benefit - if anything they're getting in one another's way.

Non-combat equivalent; after beating the bandits, imagine a small wooden box, filled with gold (a stolen paychest for the ashigaru garrison, for example), is found at the bandit's camp. The box is not particularly big but it's very heavy, such that a fitness (earth) check to carry it from the camp to the fortress is not unreasonable.

The box has only two small handles, one on each side. One person needs to make the check to lift it, and one other can easily assist, but unless someone can rig up something clever, that's it.

Note that there are still ways to assist with more people; taking the above example, the obvious solution is to find some decent rope or chain in the camp and sling it up on a slim tree trunk or a bundle of tent poles so several bushi can carry the weight. But that requires the players to (a) come up with the idea and (b) probably make an easy Labour check to rig the thing up. Which represents a bit more thought and luck on the players' part, so should help them succeed.

 

Essentially, when a PC says "I assist", the important response is "How?" - only let them have the assist die if they've got a way of assisting which will genuinely help.

The advantage/disadvantage and strife is fair enough, to me: the other PCs are all involved in the check, after all. The strife isn't disappearing, it's just being shared around the three or four participants.

 

 

 

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