Jump to content
Cloaker

Interesting video on Star Wars space combat theory

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Uh, it's Star Wars and that's just how the setting has always done it?

Of course it makes sense to put it under loads of armor. But bridges with windows are cool. Like really, trying to rationalize the design of anything in Star Wars is, no offense, stupid. Why are TIEs shaped the way they are? The **** is up with the rearward only control surfaces on X-Wings like, what the actual ****? Gun convergence settings are outright mandatory? What a crappy fighter.

 

Except, it's Star Wars.

 

That's just how we do things in it.

So by that logic nothing should make sense in Star Wars, right?

 

You're mixing up apples with oranges. Big time.

 

X-wings and especially TIE Fighters make no sense to our understanding of space dynamics, but they can easily be rationalized by admitting Star Wars space and technology works differently. ****, seeing that they work in the movies is 'proof' that, within the 'laws of physics' of the Star Wars universe, these kinds of ships work.

 

Exposed bridges are a concept that, considering starfighters can bypass shields, makes no sense in the real world and it's also repeatedly shown not to work inside the universe.

It's one thing to accept that people in Star Wars build TIE fighters because TIE Fighters work in Star Wars and completely another to accept that people in Star Wars build exposed bridges despite said bridges demonstrably NOT working in Star Wars.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Guys it's simple.

Lasers don't get through shields. Objects do. This is why Fighters exist and why Poe did what Poe did. So they fly under shields and attack exposed stuff.

There we go.

That easy.

The Last Jedi literally showed us that's how it works and nothing we have disproves that at the slightest at all.

LOL

Say this to an entire fleet of rebel snubfighters waiting for Han to cut the shield around DSII (even a slow-moving transport, like the Tydirium shuttle had to wait for the shield being desactivated).
Or maybe general Veer's troops being landed "beyond [rebels] energy field".
Or the shield at Scarif, on which several T65s crash into when they close the gate aperture?
Or even the **** twist that allows the Falcon to enter a planetary shield in hyperspace (which means it couldn't otherwise, despite being "an object").

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

LOL

Say this to an entire fleet of rebel snubfighters waiting for Han to cut the shield around DSII (even a slow-moving transport, like the Tydirium shuttle had to wait for the shield being desactivated).
Or maybe general Veer's troops being landed "beyond [rebels] energy field".
Or the shield at Scarif, on which several T65s crash into when they close the gate aperture?
Or even the **** twist that allows the Falcon to enter a planetary shield in hyperspace (which means it couldn't otherwise, despite being "an object").

There definitely aren't different types and strengths of shields, you're right Gilly.

A capital ship's shields are just as strong as a PLANET'S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sekac said:

Like in A New Hope when the death star deployed every last TIE it had to deal with the rebels, right? That military doctrine?

Yeah, in ANH, Tarkin clearly underestimates the threat, despite what is advised to him (several times) by his subordonates.
That's because he is arrogant, and that's clearly stated from the first scene we sse him (reunion scene in the DS), then through a lot of his apparitions onscreen.

Now General Hux has just suddenly turned stupid in TLJ. He is quite devoted to the FO (some may say a fanatic, ok), but I wonder how he got to a position this high with that level of incompetence.

Arrogance is a flaw I found totally convincing in a high ranking officer, but stupidity ?! Way less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

There definitely aren't different types and strengths of shields, you're right Gilly.

A capital ship's shields are just as strong as a PLANET'S.

You made a statement about "shields" (generally speaking), I disproved it with elements from the movies. 
Your assumptions about shield types, now, are yours, and and do not whish to discuss them with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

You made a statement about "shields" (generally speaking), I disproved it with elements from the movies. 
Your assumptions about shield types, now, are yours, and and do not whish to discuss them with you.

That's fine, broad strokes are okay. I definitely wasn't talking about the relevant shield types, despite fresh memories of Rogue One, ESB and RoTJ. You're right Gilly, you should assume everybody you talk to is a huge dullard.

Thumbs up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will amend a statement made elsewhere, linking a rise in snarkiness with nerf threads. TLJ also shoulders some of that weight.

Attempting to rationalize ANY Star Wars film and apply common sense and logic to what lies therein, should be banned.

Films are art. Art is subjective.

I mean, I think Van Gogh's Sunflowers is kind of rubbish compared to some of his other stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Astech said:

 The attack plan of the FO was bizarre, and not limited by topology or shielding the way the attack on Hoth was. Planetary bombardment would have ended it. More than a third-world countries defense force would have done it. Kylo not being a moron yet again would have done it.

In the TLJ movie, Poe clearly states: "All right, shields are up so they can't hit us from orbit", so it's the same scenario as Hoth. Ground forces are necessary to pass through those... surprise! shields!

I'd point up the exact second of the movie in which this is said but it's much more fun making TLJ haters having to seek for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

There definitely aren't different types and strengths of shields, you're right Gilly.

A capital ship's shields are just as strong as a PLANET'S.

Well, if you assume that both are regular 3-dimensional spheres with a shield exactly on their surface (an idealisation that doesn't change the ultimate conclusion), then a planet has a fairly similar volume-are ratio to a ship. It boils down to this:

A spherical ship's volume/area ratio linearly increases as the radius increases. Linear is the key word here. It turns out that in the case of spheres, the rate of increase in radius equals the increase in volume/area ratio divided by three. The Raddus is about 3 km long and an earth-sized planet of radius 6000 km or so, then the difference in ratio is a factor of 2000, which sounds significant until you realise that unlike planets, a ship doesn't have to defend its entire surface all the time with a defense that can resist hundreds of Star Destroyers firing at it point-blank. So lets decrease that ratio by a generously small factor of 1000. Now we're looking at a 1:6 ratio of what is essentially an energy requirement for projecting the shield.

We can boil it down further, but the argument is already won. The Raddus is a warship, and thus can easily set aside a large proportion of its innards for use in housing a large shield projector. A planet - even one like Coruscant with notably strong shields - only devotes a tiny fraction of its volume to shield generation, even considering the power generators required. I feel like it'd be very accommodating to say that less than 1/6000 of Coruscant's volume is devoted to shield generation purposes.

3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Exposed bridges are a concept that, considering starfighters can bypass shields, makes no sense in the real world and it's also repeatedly shown not to work inside the universe.

It's one thing to accept that people in Star Wars build TIE fighters because TIE Fighters work in Star Wars and completely another to accept that people in Star Wars build exposed bridges despite said bridges demonstrably NOT working in Star Wars.

Well said! Although it's worth noting that the Star Wars universe is very likely in our universe, just in a galaxy 'far away'. Even so, 'the force' can more or less explain every discrepancy to the casual viewer, and the infinite null hypothesis syndrome takes care of any scientific objection to the physics principles shown.

2 hours ago, Giledhil said:

LOL

Say this to an entire fleet of rebel snubfighters waiting for Han to cut the shield around DSII (even a slow-moving transport, like the Tydirium shuttle had to wait for the shield being desactivated).
Or maybe general Veer's troops being landed "beyond [rebels] energy field".
Or the shield at Scarif, on which several T65s crash into when they close the gate aperture?
Or even the **** twist that allows the Falcon to enter a planetary shield in hyperspace (which means it couldn't otherwise, despite being "an object").

Exactly! I thought about it and came up with 15 canon examples of this. @Captain Lackwit is being a troll here, not participating in a discussion.

2 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Yeah, in ANH, Tarkin clearly underestimates the threat, despite what is advised to him (several times) by his subordonates.
That's because he is arrogant, and that's clearly stated from the first scene we sse him (reunion scene in the DS), then through a lot of his apparitions onscreen.

Now General Hux has just suddenly turned stupid in TLJ. He is quite devoted to the FO (some may say a fanatic, ok), but I wonder how he got to a position this high with that level of incompetence.

Arrogance is a flaw I found totally convincing in a high ranking officer, but stupidity ?! Way less.

From Rogue One, we additionally now understand that Tarkin's greatest (and really only) political rival had been vanquished. Euphoria is a lovely way to overreach.

Of course, this applies to the Resistance side of the battle too. In fact, everyone in TLJ except Luke and DJ appeared entirely incompetent. The worst for me was 'A Blaster's too good for these two - bring the execution squad"... I actually retched in the theatre.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I mean, I think Van Gogh's Sunflowers is kind of rubbish compared to some of his other stuff.

Wow, Van Gogh's sunflowers really are drab in comparison. Of course, one can't subjectively say "I don't like Gogh's sunflowers, but I love the homage to them painted by this modern artist - see how he's replicated every stroke exactly!", if you see what I mean.

11 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

In the TLJ movie, Poe clearly states: "All right, shields are up so they can't hit us from orbit", so it's the same scenario as Hoth. Ground forces are necessary to pass through those... surprise! shields!

I'd point up the exact second of the movie in which this is said but it's much more fun making TLJ haters having to seek for it.

Huh, I definitely missed that. I guess the FO just has to fly a star destroyer into it and call it a day (since we know for sure that more powerful shields can't repel angry triangles of that magnitude), since unlike Hoth the Resistance has absolutely no air cover or rapid evacuation plan.

Of course, finding the exact second in the movie would be really difficult, since TLJ isn't out on digital platforms yet except as pirated versions. So how did you find it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22.03.2018 at 1:50 PM, Astech said:

Except for numerous previous canon examples:

1. Droideka shields (which are enormous in relation to the body size of the droid) block objects moving at greater than the walking speed of the droid, up to projectiles of the relatively enormous strength of missiles. (TPM, TCW, AotC, EU)

2. RotS hangar bay shields are very capable of preventing ships from at least entering the hangar, and these shields are used over huge areas that could easily be adapted to house hardpoints, even with Clone Wars era technology. (RotS)

3. During the Clone wars, Skywalker outwits a CIS admiral by luring him into lowering his shields, then directing a torpedo towards the bridge. It's pretty clear that the shields were guaranteed to block even the small, fast moving torpedo. (TCS)

4. Rogue One's planetary shield - and the planetary shields of all other planets shown in Star Wars - were capable of preventing anything less than Star Destroyer-sized vessels from passing through. Of course, this was overturned by TFA which created yet another plot-armour loophole by using hyperspace to get through the shields. (RO, EU)

5. The Death Star's shields over the thermal exhaust port could only be penetrated by proton torpedos, doubtless because of their different nuclear composition. (ANH)

6. The Death Star II's shields were capable of blocking fighter entrance. (RotJ)

7. Ray shields could prevent organic beings from moving through them at all in numerous instances. Ray shields could also repulse prevent lightsaber attacks. (TPM, RotS, TCW)

8. Vader's ISD in Rogue One caused a GR-75 travelling at near-lightspeed to bounce off with minimal damage to the hull due to its shields. (RO)

9. Hoth's relatively small shield generator caused the Imperial forces to land a significant distance from the base, probably because atmospheric craft were too vulnerable to pass through such a strong field. (ESB)

10. Even in TFA, starfighters couldn't penetrate SKB's shields, except for the Falcon because plot. (TFA)

11. In TLJ, Finn and Rose are forced to sneak aboard the batwing+ because they were unable to simply fly through the shields on their own. (TLJ)

12. In The Clone Wars, CIS heavy tanks possessed shielding that would prevent entrance from any means except a small hatchway, quite probably used for thermal exhaust. (TCW)

13. It's pretty ubiquitous among land-assaults on hardened areas for assaulting forces to be forced to land a significant distance away, as airborne vehicles simply can't penetrate the shield. (TPM, TCW, ESB, Rebels)

14. In Rebels, guerilla forces never flew into hangers and detonated ther bombs - either subterfuge or alternate boarding locations than shielded areas were always required to get any ship into a shielded area. One explanation is that ships couldn't pass through the shield unless permitted to do so. (Rebels)

15. In the epic nu-EU book where Palpatine and Vader are ambushed on Ryloth by Chan Syndulla's rebels, their ISD carrier is trapped in a setof minefields and starfighter squadrons. Only after the shields fall can Cham's rebels board the ship. (Nu-EU)

Off the top of my head, that's all the canon examples I can think of. Just fifteen of them, from every canon source released to this point including TLJ...

16. In the Phantom Menace N-1 Fighters can't penetrate Trade Federation ship's shield despite basically hugging their hulls and firing torpedoes. ("Their deflector shield is too strong. We'll never get through it.")

17. In Rogue One there is at least one scene of TIE Fighters firing at Profundity's bridge at extremely close range, with their blasts harmlessly getting stopped by the shields.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I will amend a statement made elsewhere, linking a rise in snarkiness with nerf threads. TLJ also shoulders some of that weight.

I mean, these forums are rather polite,  although we sometimes have our diagree...

 

8 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I mean, I think Van Gogh's Sunflowers is kind of rubbish compared to some of his other stuff.

GTFO

tenor.gif

 

 

j/k ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, eMeM said:

16. In the Phantom Menace N-1 Fighters can't penetrate Trade Federation ship's shield despite basically hugging their hulls and firing torpedoes. ("Their deflector shield is too strong. We'll never get through it.")

17. In Rogue One there is at least one scene of TIE Fighters firing at Profundity's bridge at extremely close range, with their blasts harmlessly getting stopped by the shields.

Nice! I hadn't thought of the Profundity's bridge defense. I left out attacking the Droid Control Ship though because Anakin later flies straight through the shields into the hangar bay. It can be rationalised, but it takes away from the point a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Astech said:

Nice! I hadn't thought of the Profundity's bridge defense. I left out attacking the Droid Control Ship though because Anakin later flies straight through the shields into the hangar bay. It can be rationalised, but it takes away from the point a bit.

Apparently if you watch that sequence close enough, one or more vulture droids are flying out at the exact same time anakin flies in, hence why the shields are down for a split second.

Can't remember if they did that intentionally for the movie as a Easter egg or it was just a clever observation later that turned into a good excuse.

Plus will of the force of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Astech said:

Of course, finding the exact second in the movie would be really difficult, since TLJ isn't out on digital platforms yet except as pirated versions. So how did you find it?

There are lots of streaming sites around there, which obviously can't be mentioned here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, markcsoul said:

Apparently if you watch that sequence close enough, one or more vulture droids are flying out at the exact same time anakin flies in, hence why the shields are down for a split second.

Can't remember if they did that intentionally for the movie as a Easter egg or it was just a clever observation later that turned into a good excuse.

Plus will of the force of course.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, markcsoul said:

Apparently if you watch that sequence close enough, one or more vulture droids are flying out at the exact same time anakin flies in, hence why the shields are down for a split second.

Can't remember if they did that intentionally for the movie as a Easter egg or it was just a clever observation later that turned into a good excuse.

Plus will of the force of course.

This is correct, you can see a group of four Vultures leaving the hangar:

5FRmdqM.png

(lower right corner)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Scopes said:

The video posted by the OP...the fact that you have to justify/explain/defend stuff from the TLJ speaks volumes. 

 

 

Boys, it's still a bad movie. Sorry. 

"Here's the facts and there's the facts, there's no denying the facty facts."

Quit that. You have an opinion like the rest of us, but the least you can do is respect it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/03/2018 at 1:24 PM, Scopes said:

The video posted by the OP...the fact that you have to justify/explain/defend stuff from the TLJ speaks volumes. 

It certainly does, but I'm still waiting for an explanation to the ending of Lost, too (not that I'm saying either was good). I think the key point is that TLJ (and to a lesser degree TFA) force new explanations for things that had already been solved by previous canon.

On 25/03/2018 at 7:38 PM, Captain Lackwit said:

"Here's the facts and there's the facts, there's no denying the facty facts."

Quit that. You have an opinion like the rest of us, but the least you can do is respect it.

Well in this case, his opinion about TLJ being a bad movie is pretty accurate by the only statistic that is remotely accurate in this matter: user feedback. According to rotten tomatoes, each movie had the following user rating:

ANH 96% liked it.
ESB  97%.
RotJ  94%.

TPM 59%.
AotC 57%.
RotS 65%.

R1     87%.

TFA  88%
TLJ   48%

Now each of these has tens of thousands of reviewers - and TLJ as nearly 200'000 user reviews. TLJ is the least liked of the Star Wars movies by a wide margin. Even compared to The Phantom Menace TLJ is poor - with a difference of 11% (relative difference 23%) in user ratings. The classic trilogy is pretty clearly winning the race here, even after all this time, but all the other movies maintain a semblance of plot, character development and so on.

TLJ is - as objectively as it is possible to get with art - bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/25/2018 at 4:38 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

"Here's the facts and there's the facts, there's no denying the facty facts."

Quit that. You have an opinion like the rest of us, but the least you can do is respect it.

You are absolutely right, fwiw. I should/do respect everyone's opinion, even if the tone of my post sounds like I don't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Astech said:

It certainly does, but I'm still waiting for an explanation to the ending of Lost, too (not that I'm saying either was good). I think the key point is that TLJ (and to a lesser degree TFA) force new explanations for things that had already been solved by previous canon.

Well in this case, his opinion about TLJ being a bad movie is pretty accurate by the only statistic that is remotely accurate in this matter: user feedback. According to rotten tomatoes, each movie had the following user rating:

ANH 96% liked it.
ESB  97%.
RotJ  94%.

TPM 59%.
AotC 57%.
RotS 65%.

R1     87%.

TFA  88%
TLJ   48%

Now each of these has tens of thousands of reviewers - and TLJ as nearly 200'000 user reviews. TLJ is the least liked of the Star Wars movies by a wide margin. Even compared to The Phantom Menace TLJ is poor - with a difference of 11% (relative difference 23%) in user ratings. The classic trilogy is pretty clearly winning the race here, even after all this time, but all the other movies maintain a semblance of plot, character development and so on.

TLJ is - as objectively as it is possible to get with art - bad.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with how not only is TLJ the newest one, but in this day and age everything ever is awful all the time for all time. Definitely not a factor at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...