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Wazat

Feelings about Harpoons vs T-65s

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On 3/22/2018 at 5:50 PM, Giledhil said:

Pretty much agree to everything you said but this. 

A boring list never seemed to ennoy "competitive" players. 

Remember the days of quad TLT Ywings? ^^

Haha the dark days..

That's fine. I didn't say they'd disappear, but I do still think the numbers will drop. My regional meta has already started to move away from them, which I can only guess is due to distaste, since nothing has changed to make them less effective.

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14 hours ago, BVRCH said:

Haha the dark days..

That's fine. I didn't say they'd disappear, but I do still think the numbers will drop. My regional meta has already started to move away from them, which I can only guess is due to distaste, since nothing has changed to make them less effective.

Let's hope you're right then :)

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Keep seeing the term "T-65 fix" getting thrown around and wondered why people think that "-1 red dice for green straights and the boost action added to your action bar / Gaining the barrel roll action and being able to change a turn into a talon roll" is really going to "save" the ship. (That's the rumored card, could be wrong but I reckon it's actually quite close.)

It's still a three hull, two shield ship that essentially will be having one action a turn, which will likely be a focus unless you want to be offensively and defensively tokenless in a world full of hyper accurate four to five damage attacks. 

I want the dream to be true but I am really struggling with this hype train. 

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6 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Keep seeing the term "T-65 fix" getting thrown around and wondered why people think that "-1 red dice for green straights and the boost action added to your action bar / Gaining the barrel roll action and being able to change a turn into a talon roll" is really going to "save" the ship. (That's the rumored card, could be wrong but I reckon it's actually quite close.)

It's still a three hull, two shield ship that essentially will be having one action a turn, which will likely be a focus unless you want to be offensively and defensively tokenless in a world full of hyper accurate four to five damage attacks. 

I want the dream to be true but I am really struggling with this hype train. 

100% agree.  I see the T-65 fix as being very similar to the Starviper MkII fix - it addresses the positioning and 'fun to fly' of the ship but doesn't materially improve it's effectiveness.  The T-65 has some truly terrible pilots and pilot abilities and that won't change.

Unless the fix comes with a Starviper MkII-style cost reduction I think it's going to have little impact on their competitive performance.

 

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I'm expecting a torp slot with a 1 point discount and the option of equipping two mod slots, and Cavern Angels to cost 20 points.  So you can get 5 rookies without IA/Astro, or 5 Cavern Angels with.

AND a title that adds boost on one side (with a primary weapon penaly), and barrel roll and tallon roll on the other.

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21 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Keep seeing the term "T-65 fix" getting thrown around and wondered why people think that "-1 red dice for green straights and the boost action added to your action bar / Gaining the barrel roll action and being able to change a turn into a talon roll" is really going to "save" the ship. (That's the rumored card, could be wrong but I reckon it's actually quite close.)

It's still a three hull, two shield ship that essentially will be having one action a turn, which will likely be a focus unless you want to be offensively and defensively tokenless in a world full of hyper accurate four to five damage attacks. 

I want the dream to be true but I am really struggling with this hype train. 

There is more, you are missing the point reduction (likely -2 points) and extra mod slot for Integrated Astromech.

It will not make individual X-wings unbeatable monsters, but decent budget options. 29 points for VI + FAA + S-Foils + IA Wedge or Wes? 19-point PS1 with FAA, S-Foils, IA? I'd at least give it a try.

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I'm not sure about the points reduction; either way; with 2AGI and 5/6 HP, and no way to buff defence reliably, the 65 will still suffer.
Let's hope the evade token in the pack has something to do with the Title.

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5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm expecting a torp slot with a 1 point discount and the option of equipping two mod slots, and Cavern Angels to cost 20 points.  So you can get 5 rookies without IA/Astro, or 5 Cavern Angels with.

AND a title that adds boost on one side (with a primary weapon penaly), and barrel roll and tallon roll on the other.

I think you are forgetting that the Servo Motors flip at the end phase so you will start the turn with the -1 attack dice and will keep it for the entire turn. 

So this not only telegraphs your desire to boost, leaving you tokenless, but it also fantastically reduces your attack output, even if you don't decide to boost. 

If you never flip the servo motors card, you gain access to barrel roll, which is OK when blocking and the option to turn a hard turn into a talon roll, which at PS1 is . . . really meh?

To me, Servo Motors seems outclassed by Flight Assist which grants both the boost and barrel roll tools for 1 point, doesn't cost your action and doesn't reduce your attack dice. and to Stay on the Leaders point, let's look at the pilots:

Rookie
Red
Tarn - Already has a favorite astromech
Hobbie - Could be OK with the talon roll if Target-ting Astromech works with it. 
Biggs - One trick pony.
Garven - Needs a focus to do anything so no boost or barrel roll for him from Servo. 
Porkens - Best pilot by far, he can always hold it. Take PtL and live on the edge. 
Wes - Token stripper and normally stabled with stressbot, shame Ezra or Fenn do his job WAAAY better.
Luke - Poor mans Poe. 
Wedge - Bullet magnet / Better Biggs then Biggs.

Kullbee - aka the Flappy One -  A 26 point, action starved Xwing that in order to use his ability, has to use the action listed on the servo motors card, which leaves him without a token. Every time you barrel roll and flip that card you are essentially telling your opponent that you will be boosting next turn otherwise you have a 26 point Z95. You could of course take BB8 and/push the limit but now you are 31 points, which is not great for an X wing. You could also take Flight Assist . . but then why would you ever flip the card??

Sorry for the rambling thought process but I just, cannot see how this card is going to make the T65 enjoyable to use. 

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34 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm expecting a torp slot with a 1 point discount and the option of equipping two mod slots, and Cavern Angels to cost 20 points.  So you can get 5 rookies without IA/Astro, or 5 Cavern Angels with.

AND a title that adds boost on one side (with a primary weapon penaly), and barrel roll and tallon roll on the other.

K-fighter is 21 pts with title and barell roll (plus free chips and tracers :) ), and still not in a really good posture right now.

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The title really works best for high PS X-Wing pilots, that's when you can leverage the T-Roll option and extra barrel/boosting to the best effect.  White T-Roll is a nice thing as well.

I think you can see a lot by looking at what's happened with the Starviper.  However much they make the PS1 generic an amazing cost-effective package with great reposition it's not going to get into anybody's squads because the game isn't about that any more.  Thweek, maybe Guri - the ones with great pilot abilities that don't cost the earth, those are the ones you see.  And those ain't amazing.

I think post-buff you'll see a bit of Wedge, a bit of Wes.  That's about it.

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I don't want it to be competitive, I mean, that would be great but I just want the thing to be enjoyable to use. 

Considering that we still have the Scarif pilots to bring into the game as well. . just seems like a lot of wasted potential to me. 

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Yea, this is what's been haunting me since the reveal -- comparisons to Starvipers and K-Fighters.  This fix itself doesn't feel astounding or aggressive the way those titles were.  And given the milktoast fix, X-Wings still have the current meta to contend with.  Even with the top 20% removed (so non-top-meta games), will this put X-Wings solidly back on the map, or will the game's namesake ship be an occasional novelty?  All things considered, I'm not optimistic unless it's paired with a decent point reduction or other hidden fix.  And even then... I'm just not holding onto hope.  The fact that FFG thought boosting needed a downside indicates they either know things we don't, or they're totally ignorant to what's obvious to the rest of us.

 

Whatever the opinions here, I'm inspired that at least some people are still optimistic about that Harpoons getting a nerf (even if Harpoons are supposedly all that's holding the meta together and staving off the end times).  ;)  Maybe their removal would cause an apocalyptic meta collapse and FFG would be forced to make more fundamental fixes to the game and their responsiveness, the way Games Workshop has done a 180 with their community.  A buddy of mine is convinced FFG is working on an X-Wing 2.0, a burn and restart of all the stats, abilities, gameplay, etc.  Honestly I'm not convinced that's actively in the works, at least in an official capacity (though some people are homebrewing a 2.0 version, so there's that).  And if they were doing this, lord knows FFG would never miss the opportunity to sell us a solution to a problem of their own making, especially an underwhelming, half-baked, under-tested solution that disappoints us in the end.  *grumble*

Okay I've gone and depressed everyone further.  And probably raised some hackles.  I'll be quiet now.  *nervous laugh*

don't kill wazat

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On 3/20/2018 at 11:10 AM, Wazat said:

I've been running a fantastically unscientific poll over at Wikia 

Being the salty bastard that I am, I put in the first vote at #4 because I feel like Harpoons are not fun at all to fight (and I'm still grumpy about recently losing my Decimator in a single combat round 

Why was your decorator in range in arc of 3 or more ships 

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1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

Why was your decorator in range in arc of 3 or more ships 

"decorator"?  You mean "decimator"?  (actually in retrospect that was probably auto-correct biting ya)

Because it's a large base ship facing higher-PS foes (it wasn't RAC), I didn't out-guess my foe (figured he'd surge forward because I'd been slow-rolling, I surged in anticipation, and he slow-rolled), and it's easier to couch-general talk about managing range and arc than it is to perfectly pull it off every time.  The argument that there's no problem with Harpoons seems to often include "and if you don't ever end up in range and in arc, you're fine; if you do, then you're a poor player git gud".

I disagree.  The same goes for Trajectory Simulator Nym before the Genius nerf, or facing Miranda-Nym or Fenn-Ghost with a fleet that's not specifically designed to take them down -- "just don't end up in that situation and you're fine".  Err... thanks, problem solved.

Edited by Wazat
noticed it's probably auto-correct that caused his misspelling

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Responding to an earlier post about the role of muntions (they either need to be OP or they won't get taken over the primary weapon, or they should be high risk but high reward). 

The problem with muntions prior to guidance chips was that they were an added cost for a high risk but low reward (only an extra damage or two for one round of the game). Extra munitions and guidance chips helped with this. Now they were very consistent, but only for twice a game (unless you had scavenger crane). Now with the reload action you can get them to work more than twice a game. 

I may agree with you, but I want to expand upon what type of high risk I would like, and that is a hard time getting to use them, but when yo do, they work. So I don't want the high risk to be that you might just roll poorly. I would like it to be hard to get to use them, like Advanced Proton Torpedoes, but if you get them to fire, you will do a bunch of damage. So they reward skillful flying. 

With Harpoons, they are just too easy to use. Range 2-3 is a huge area. If they were restricted to range 3, this would help. If, instead, they are kept 2-3, the reward should be less big. Like the crit does not trigger an auto damage on the harpooned ship (perhaps make it a roll, like the action currently is, but then make the action discard it without rolling - losing an action is costly enough). 

The trick is that they used to be more difficult to pull off, since fewer ships had two actions. Now that 2 actions is more standard, anyone can get a torpedo or missile off, and with GC it will usually hit. This means we need low reward muntions. The higher reward munitions need to be more situational. 

I want munitions to be part of the game. I want to see proton torpedoes out there! They should be tricky to use, but when they work they should hit hard.

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I too want my T-65s to be good on the mat, but I want my TIE Interceptors, A-Wings, B-Wings and TIE Advanced (other than Vader) to be just as useful. The real problem is power creep. I'm looking forward to the next big FFG post telling us what the "FIX" actually is, until then, I am uber-skeptical.

I'd love to see mats at tournaments filled with all sorts of lists, but obscure, non-original ships don't make up the super-vast-majority. If the K-Wing, Ghost, Azituck and Scurrg went the way of the pre-fix (let's hope) T-65 and TIE/LN fighter.

Fare is fare..........let's play Star Wars X-Wing again in tournaments!!!!

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Well the problem is powercreep and those OT ships never being any good in the first place due to poor design

Though it'd all be much easier to fix if they hadn't powercreep turrets which cannot truly be outplayed, only outdiced 

We're gonna need a LOT of dice to get an equivalent points of X/A/Bs to the ghost's level even disregarding the infinite coverage turret and maneuverability advantage 

EDIT:

by the way, I'm going to call it now

either Saw's becomes "d'aww...this fix didn't do ****", or that little evade token is a precursor to the global gnashing of teeth that will follow in the wake of the unkillable Luke Skywalker and Tarn Mison

swx74_spread.png

there is no middle ground

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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