Rebel Tactics: How to deal with the AT-ST

[toffolone 93]

in my opinion Empire will not use so much the AT ST. It is too many points. Better to go with 3x speeder bikes. ANd maybe missiles launchers.

At least until General Veers is out. That's just because with Vader as mandatory Leader, ther ewill not be enough points to deploy an fully operational AT ST. 

Bikes are too strong to leave them on the shelf....  

[Rumar 244]

1 hour ago, toffolone said:

Bikes are too strong to leave them on the shelf....  

Bikes are a bit of a glass cannon and the compulsory move is a serious tactical disadvantage.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Impact Grenades and Z6. Assuming your opponent lets it happen, that's 11 dice with Impact 5. 

1.375 natural crits
1.875 black hits
0.75 white hits
 

2.625 total hits, which can be converted to crits for a total of 4 crits on the table.

Or something close to that. 

[buckero0 1,956]

Focus fire sounds like the answer.

 

[NeonWolf 942]

I'm not so sure that the common idea that an AT-ST is too expensive with Vader as the commander is accurate.  I can come up with a list that has Vader with Choke, Reflexes, and Saber Throw, 3x Stormtrooper squads, all with DLT-19's and Concussion grenades, a 74-Z squad with Long Range Comms, and an AT-ST with Weiss and all 3 hardpoint weapons for 799 points.  That seems like a rather solid list to me.

Edited March 20, 2018 by NeonWolf

[Lancezh 98]

You guys realise that Ion Tokens stack ? The Snowspeeder is a cool maneuver but way to unreliable to count on. You dont want to gamble your game on one action, ever. 2 Ion Tokens on the at-st disable it for a round (except free actions). Combine that with an optional harpoon to make it even more painfull in the future and you're golden but dont have to rely on.

If the ATST is in range when you shoot first he will be in the next round as well, so you can ready your ion gun and shoot again.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Lancezh

[buckero0 1,956]

at some point there will be an ability from a commander or otherwise that gives out free Recover like Veers does with Aim and Leia does with Dodge. 

I thought Armor was going to be killer in this game and I think its a good mechanic, but if my AtRt melts to shots from 2 stormtrooper squads, then an ATST can die as well.  T47 and Speedbikes can get around it faster is why they are being mentioned as foils. In the back the T47 gets Impact 4 with GOOD dice and even the speedbikes would get a boost to their decent armament.

11 health means it will continue to shoot at you but will be less effective and unable to turn.  Sometimes crippling it and grabbing the objectives will be the way to victory, just like taking on Vader is probably just as foolish as a strategy.  He can be just as difficult to bring down, esp. with deflect and reflexes.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

34 minutes ago, Lancezh said:

You guys realise that Ion Tokens stack ? The Snowspeeder is a cool maneuver but way to unreliable to count on. You dont want to gamble your game on one action, ever. 2 Ion Tokens on the at-st disable it for a round (except free actions). Combine that with an optional harpoon to make it even more painfull in the future and you're golden but dont have to rely on.

If the ATST is in range when you shoot first he will be in the next round as well, so you can ready your ion gun and shoot again.

As has been said, you need to take multiple MPL-57 troops to maintain ion tokens. Moving into range of an AT-ST likely puts you in range of all the other stuff your opponent brought, and the AT-ST with all its weapons. Vader can choke out a specific mini as well, removing all your ion weapons.

On top of that, if you are attacked and gain suppression tokens, you will lose an action. This means you have 1 action per round, and it's either attack or Ready. And you need to Ready the ion trooper in order to attack. So now you are attacking, readying, then attacking again, at which point half the game has gone by. 

You can take multiple ion troops, but you still run into the same problem, and now you are making an army devoted to taking down Armor. 

 

One way to make ion troops better is to run them with your commander. Morale of 6 means they keep fighting until they have 3 suppression tokens. 

IMO, AT-RTs with Laser and Rotary cannons are going to be the way to go to take down enemy armor. Z6 with Impact grenade squads will allow you to take down armor or enemy infantry.

[buckero0 1,956]

8 hours ago, toffolone said:

in my opinion Empire will not use so much the AT ST. It is too many points. Better to go with 3x speeder bikes. ANd maybe missiles launchers.

Bikes are too strong to leave them on the shelf....  

This I don't understand, 270pts for 3 units of speeder bikes are not comparable to AtST with 1 upgrade (215pts) but on very different platforms. Armor and Range and #of wounds and a whole bunch  of stuff make these way different than each other and have different purpose in my opinion.

Unless you're talking about 3 actual speeder bikes, which is still not comparable as you have to take 2 units but they still have a very different profile for attacks, wounds, defense, etc.

and I don't think 215-225 is too much for what the AtSt brings, otherwise we wouldn't have a 2 page discussion on people being nervous about facing the AtSt.  It is a psychological tactic as is Darth Vader for similar and different reasons. Part of it is the defense and wounds each has.

[Lancezh 98]

doublepost

Edited March 20, 2018 by Lancezh

[Lancezh 98]

5 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

As has been said, you need to take multiple MPL-57 troops to maintain ion tokens. Moving into range of an AT-ST likely puts you in range of all the other stuff your opponent brought, and the AT-ST with all its weapons. Vader can choke out a specific mini as well, removing all your ion weapons.

On top of that, if you are attacked and gain suppression tokens, you will lose an action. This means you have 1 action per round, and it's either attack or Ready. And you need to Ready the ion trooper in order to attack. So now you are attacking, readying, then attacking again, at which point half the game has gone by. 

You can take multiple ion troops, but you still run into the same problem, and now you are making an army devoted to taking down Armor. 

 

One way to make ion troops better is to run them with your commander. Morale of 6 means they keep fighting until they have 3 suppression tokens. 

IMO, AT-RTs with Laser and Rotary cannons are going to be the way to go to take down enemy armor. Z6 with Impact grenade squads will allow you to take down armor or enemy infantry.

I also just noticed that you only check for the commander's morale value for the panicked state not for losing actions, i misplayed that. Still, i think the rebel ion guns are very good and even if the at-st loses just one round that's very good:

 

3 Rebel Units with Ion Cannon: 216pts

Fully decked out AT-ST without Comms upgrade: 250pts

 

That's almost 20% less points for a hardcounter you're having, thus it is a counter. They can also shoot at the AT-ST while the other troopers shoot somewhere else, you can control objectives. I'm not convinced that this is not a good counter yet. Those 2 red dice from the Ion Gun almost always hit (with impact 1). Otherwise if you can disable it, assault it afterwards with impact grenades.

The argument that there are other units present is not valid as you simply compare points vs points, and at range 3 those Ion Guns are definitely a considerable counter.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

40 minutes ago, Lancezh said:

The argument that there are other units present is not valid as you simply compare points vs points, and at range 3 those Ion Guns are definitely a considerable counter.

This is not true. If I can kill your counter before you can use it, you're counter is useless. Comparing things in a vacuum is the worst way to talk about the game. While you're trying to get into range 3 of the AT-ST, Vader is walking up and will slice n dice your troops, or play Master of Evil and now all your guys are suppressed. 

See how I countered your counter? And now we just go back n forth forever. 

 

In theory, the ion troops will counter vehicles. But in practice, this will be harder than running up to an AT-ST and blasting it. 

[Hoffburger 209]

7 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I'm not so sure that the common idea that an AT-ST is too expensive with Vader as the commander is accurate.  I can come up with a list that has Vader with Choke, Reflexes, and Saber Throw, 3x Stormtrooper squads, all with DLT-19's and Concussion grenades, a 74-Z squad with Long Range Comms, and an AT-ST with Weiss and all 3 hardpoint weapons for 799 points.  That seems like a rather solid list to me.

Well, frankly, you'd be wrong. Playing with less than 5 troops is a huge mistake due to objectives and playing with only 3 troops can basically guarantee a loss on some scenarios.

Also, Ions completely suck vs troops and if you go up against a non ATST list you are at a huge disadvantage. Even against the ATST they can just activate between Ions if you take 2 Ions. Also you're reloading and shooting every turn (or not shooting if you get suppressed) which makes you a squishy as **** target.

Lastly, to the person that said compulsory move is a disadvantage...you couldn't be more wrong. It is such a huge bonus. You basically get 3 actions due to it. You can aim and fire, dodge and fire, etc. It gives you so many options.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Hoffburger

[Lancezh 98]

44 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

This is not true. If I can kill your counter before you can use it, you're counter is useless. Comparing things in a vacuum is the worst way to talk about the game. While you're trying to get into range 3 of the AT-ST, Vader is walking up and will slice n dice your troops, or play Master of Evil and now all your guys are suppressed. 

See how I countered your counter? And now we just go back n forth forever. 

 

In theory, the ion troops will counter vehicles. But in practice, this will be harder than running up to an AT-ST and blasting it. 

I dont want to sound like a d.ouche, but range 3 is huge on terrain heavy tables and easy to pull off, i'm basing this on a play experience of about 10 games so far. And getting vader to do this and that is just more theorycrafting, he needs to be in range of those infantrytroops. (it's another 200 points towards a really slow unit)

Making Infantry panic is extremely difficult to the point where they flee and you need to kill all but one trooper to wipe the specialist. I'm sorry i'm not convinced based on what i've seen so far. (Im not even playing rebels, i'm just saying its not that clearcut)

Edited March 20, 2018 by Lancezh

[NeonWolf 942]

12 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

Well, frankly, you'd be wrong. Playing with less than 5 troops is a huge mistake due to objectives and playing with only 3 troops can basically guarantee a loss on some scenarios.

Can you share what you are basing your statement on regarding number of Corps units to take?

6 minutes ago, Lancezh said:

..., but range 3 is huge on terrain heavy tables and easy to pull off, i'm basing this on a play experience of about 10 games so far.

What are you considering a "terrain heavy table"?  More than the 1/4 of the battlefield outlined in the Competetive Terrain box on RRG pg.9?

[Derrault 1,091]

25 minutes ago, Lancezh said:

I dont want to sound like a d.ouche, but range 3 is huge on terrain heavy tables and easy to pull off, i'm basing this on a play experience of about 10 games so far. And getting vader to do this and that is just more theorycrafting, he needs to be in range of those infantrytroops. (it's another 200 points towards a really slow unit)

Making Infantry panic is extremely difficult to the point where they flee and you need to kill all but one trooper to wipe the specialist. I'm sorry i'm not convinced based on what i've seen so far. (Im not even playing rebels, i'm just saying its not that clearcut)

Force choke can directly remove specialists.

[DarkTrooperZero 304]

9 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I'm not so sure that the common idea that an AT-ST is too expensive with Vader as the commander is accurate.  I can come up with a list that has Vader with Choke, Reflexes, and Saber Throw, 3x Stormtrooper squads, all with DLT-19's and Concussion grenades, a 74-Z squad with Long Range Comms, and an AT-ST with Weiss and all 3 hardpoint weapons for 799 points.  That seems like a rather solid list to me.

Agree, people are going bananas over vader+AtSt not being competitive, I think time well tell but suspect a well used Vader will monster stuff.

[Lancezh 98]

51 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Force choke can directly remove specialists.

Today i learned, of course makes sense.

[Hoffburger 209]

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

Can you share what you are basing your statement on regarding number of Corps units to take?

What are you considering a "terrain heavy table"?  More than the 1/4 of the battlefield outlined in the Competetive Terrain box on RRG pg.9?

A ton of games vs good players with a wide array of lists to test everything. I already posted my thoughts on the 2 best lists in the game on release in another thread.

[Weatsop 64]

On 20/03/2018 at 8:21 AM, Omnustechni said:

I think I like the focus fire approach from the ATRTs. Keep in mind that if you bring it down, you're bringing down about a quarter of their army. The laser cannons aren't as good at taking down infantry, but they could knock down a few storm troopers afterwards. 

This for me too.

Let's face it: right now Rebel is bringing three ATRTs. They're great. Just a matter of what we're putting on them.

Rotaries are better vs general targets, but the difference is only 3-odd hits compared with the laser cannon's 2-odd. If we're looking at crits, the Rotary gets 1 and a quarter vs anything, while Laser gets 2-and-a-bit vs vehicles and about 3/4's of one on general targets.

If it was just the ATST, then that might not be worth it. But there are also all those Rebels out there with ATRTs. And being able to pot an enemy ATRT in a round (with a bit of luck, assuming a crit from some infantry, for example) is golden.

(Thanks to how cover works, laser cannons don't actually work any better than rotaries against a T-47).

The decider for me for now is the range. I am much more likely to be able to find cover, and much more likely to force my target to move if they want to shoot back. I'm also more likely to have aim, if I need to fish for crits.

 

...but I can definitely see the case for rotaries, because those "real" crits make a huge difference...

 

(I'm also bringing some ion rifles, if only because I don't have anything much good to spend those points on yet).

[Thornoo1 280]

Three AT-RT smash it pretty easily. You lose one AT-RT before taking it down but then they’re free to to go Vader hunting. 

Ive played half a dozen games on TTS now and it really isn’t that threatening. From my all be it short experience SWL is turning into a MSU game. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Thornoo1

[Jabby 1,042]

20 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I'm not so sure that the common idea that an AT-ST is too expensive with Vader as the commander is accurate.  I can come up with a list that has Vader with Choke, Reflexes, and Saber Throw, 3x Stormtrooper squads, all with DLT-19's and Concussion grenades, a 74-Z squad with Long Range Comms, and an AT-ST with Weiss and all 3 hardpoint weapons for 799 points.  That seems like a rather solid list to me.

Thats a very solid list. If i say that I’d be scared. Until i pull out my triple naked at-rt list

[Caimheul1313 2,990]

4 hours ago, Weatsop said:

Let's face it: right now Rebel is bringing three ATRTs. They're great. Just a matter of what we're putting on them.

Magnets are what I'm putting on mine . Especially since I want to be able to swap/remove the gun as necessary. I will probably do the same thing with the Airspeeder.