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Wolfstan

Modified dice query

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4 minutes ago, pstalker said:

Ok, fine then lets play by your rules.....

I have a question....."Can I use the IMPACT keyword on a target that does not have the ARMOR keyword?" 

RRG tells me to answer that question I should refer to the Keyword as defined in the RRG......

RRG entry for "IMPACT X" says nothing about only applying the keyword to targets that have the ARMOR keyword..... 

Therefore the text on the card which is just REMINDER text does NOT tell me how to apply the rules of the keyword...the RRG does that....

Did you read the card text?

AT-RT%20Laser%20Cannon.pngMPL-57%20Ion%20Trooper.pngHH-12%20Stormtrooper.png88%20Twin%20Light%20Blaster%20Cannon.png

The card says you use it while attacking a unit with Armor. 

 

Did you read the text for Impact?

During the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack, a unit whose attack pool includes a weapon that has the impact x keyword can modify the results of the attack roll by changing hit (?) results to critical (?) results. The unit can change a number of hit (?) results to critical (?) results up to the value of x.

  • • If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets, the attacker can modify only dice in the attack pool that the weapon with the impact x keyword contributed to.
  • • If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
    • For example, a unit that performs an attack using both a weapon that has impact 1 and a weapon that has impact 2 contribute dice to the attack pool, that attack is treated as using a weapon that has impact 3 which allows that unit to change up to three hit (?) results to critical (?) results.
  • • The attacker resolves abilities during the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack before the defender resolves abilities during that step. As such, the impact x keyword can be used to change hit (?) results to critical (?) results before the armor keyword can be used to cancel hit (?) results.

In case you missed it.

As such, the impact x keyword can be used to change hit (?) results to critical (?) results before the armor keyword can be used to cancel hit (?) results.

Well I'll be damned, the RRG says you can change hits to crits before the armor keyword can be used. The RRG doesn't need to state Impact can only be used against units with Armor, because that's the only keyword that is given in the RRG. 

Or to phrase differently, Impact only works against targets with Armor because the RRG doesn't say you can use it on anything else. 

 

Here is a crazy example of people saying "Well the RRG doesn't say I can't do it, therefore I can."

We are playing Legion. I decide to throw your minis across the room. Since the minis are not on the table, you cannot measure range. Therefore you cannot make an attack. 

The rules don't prevent me from throwing your minis, therefore I am allowed to. 

 

The RRG does say Impact can be used to change hits to crits before Armor is used. Therefore Impact can only be used against Armor. And this is supported by the Golden Rules, the RRG, and the card text.

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I feel I should also point out that the RRG specifically states that the reminder text is for how and WHEN to apply a keyword, and that the glossary is for if you still have questions. The glossary is NOT meant to be comprehensive and exhaustive, but to clear up questions and complex rules interactions. Impact X has the bit for how to apply keywords to attack pools as an example. The card itself makes it clear when to use Impact so there's no need for them to expand on it in the RRG.

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27 minutes ago, HadeusHawkyns said:

I'm fairly certain the intent is for Impact to only apply to units with the Armor keyword. The Learn To Play, which is NOT contradicted by the Rules Reference Guide, states that Impact is applied when the opposing unit has Armor. Likewise, the card itself specifies this timing and is not contradicted by the RRG either. Even if it is "Reminder Text" it is not stating a rule that is inconsistent with either documents. Several people have also noted that the keyword (currently) only matters when applied to armor anyway. The "Armor" notation has been consistent on all cards with Impact (that I've seen anyway). Even the RRG makes a note of Listing Impact and Armor together in the glossary. Even if we're assuming that the RRG glossary is the "end all, be all" for the rule, the glossary references applying the armor keyword in conjunction with impact.

Agreed.

 

RRG pg 4

If something in this reference contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference takes precedence.

 

LTP pg 15

While attacking a unit that has the armor keyword, a unit performing an attack using a weapon with the impact x keyword can change a number of hit (?) results to critical (?) results during the “Modify Attack Dice” step of the attack equal to the value of “x”.

 

RRG ph 30

During the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack, a unit whose attack pool includes a weapon that has the impact x keyword can modify the results of the attack roll by changing hit (?) results to critical (?) results. The unit can change a number of hit (?) results to critical (?) results up to the value of x.

  • • If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets, the attacker can modify only dice in the attack pool that the weapon with the impact x keyword contributed to.
  • • If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
    • For example, a unit that performs an attack using both a weapon that has impact 1 and a weapon that has impact 2 contribute dice to the attack pool, that attack is treated as using a weapon that has impact 3 which allows that unit to change up to three hit (?) results to critical (?) results.
  • • The attacker resolves abilities during the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack before the defender resolves abilities during that step. As such, the impact x keyword can be used to change hit (?) results to critical (?) results before the armor keyword can be used to cancel hit (?) results.

 

 

No contradiction. Therefore, Impact can ONLY be used against targets with Armor.

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6 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Did you read the card text?

AT-RT%20Laser%20Cannon.pngMPL-57%20Ion%20Trooper.pngHH-12%20Stormtrooper.png88%20Twin%20Light%20Blaster%20Cannon.png

The card says you use it while attacking a unit with Armor. 

 

Did you read the text for Impact?

During the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack, a unit whose attack pool includes a weapon that has the impact x keyword can modify the results of the attack roll by changing hit (?) results to critical (?) results. The unit can change a number of hit (?) results to critical (?) results up to the value of x.

  • • If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets, the attacker can modify only dice in the attack pool that the weapon with the impact x keyword contributed to.
  • • If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
    • For example, a unit that performs an attack using both a weapon that has impact 1 and a weapon that has impact 2 contribute dice to the attack pool, that attack is treated as using a weapon that has impact 3 which allows that unit to change up to three hit (?) results to critical (?) results.
  • • The attacker resolves abilities during the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack before the defender resolves abilities during that step. As such, the impact x keyword can be used to change hit (?) results to critical (?) results before the armor keyword can be used to cancel hit (?) results.

In case you missed it.

As such, the impact x keyword can be used to change hit (?) results to critical (?) results before the armor keyword can be used to cancel hit (?) results.

Well I'll be damned, the RRG says you can change hits to crits before the armor keyword can be used. The RRG doesn't need to state Impact can only be used against units with Armor, because that's the only keyword that is given in the RRG. 

Or to phrase differently, Impact only works against targets with Armor because the RRG doesn't say you can use it on anything else. 

 

Here is a crazy example of people saying "Well the RRG doesn't say I can't do it, therefore I can."

We are playing Legion. I decide to throw your minis across the room. Since the minis are not on the table, you cannot measure range. Therefore you cannot make an attack. 

The rules don't prevent me from throwing your minis, therefore I am allowed to. 

 

The RRG does say Impact can be used to change hits to crits before Armor is used. Therefore Impact can only be used against Armor. And this is supported by the Golden Rules, the RRG, and the card text.

The last bullet point simply clarifies when you apply the Impact keyword.  It THEN gives an example by showing what you do in the situation should both the Impact and Armor keywords both come up. 

Your implying a situation in the RRG that isnt there just because the Impact definition happens to contain a reference on what to do when Armor is also present. 

 

That is like taking the phrase "The sun comes out on Tuesday." and saying "oh well since they said the sun only comes out on Tuesday that must mean it can ONLY come out on Tuesdays and no other days"

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13 minutes ago, pstalker said:

The last bullet point simply clarifies when you apply the Impact keyword.  It THEN gives an example by showing what you do in the situation should both the Impact and Armor keywords both come up. 

Your implying a situation in the RRG that isnt there just because the Impact definition happens to contain a reference on what to do when Armor is also present. 

 

That is like taking the phrase "The sun comes out on Tuesday." and saying "oh well since they said the sun only comes out on Tuesday that must mean it can ONLY come out on Tuesdays and no other days"

Actually I think the fact that it's used implies that the armor keyword would have to be applied afterwards- which only happens if the unit has armor.

That said, you can't have it both ways. You've been treating the glossary entry as complete and absolute- if it's in there, it's the rule, and if it's not, it's not. If it's just examples for clearing up questions, as I've suggested before, then it doesn't contradict the card that states you only apply it when attacking a unit with the Armor keyword.

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29 minutes ago, pstalker said:

That is like taking the phrase "The sun comes out on Tuesday." and saying "oh well since they said the sun only comes out on Tuesday that must mean it can ONLY come out on Tuesdays and no other days"

Does the RRG state the sun comes out on Tuesday?

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You guys thinking what is printed on a card FFG had printed up is actually hard set and true is just so cute. Seriously, it is reminder text and FFG don't care what is printed on the card. They change things a lot, even between the time of sending the text and formatting to the printer and the time the game actually comes out.  Expect what is printed on those cards to change and be adjusted as needed over time.

To know what impact does, you look it up in the most current rule set published. Even then, be in the mind set that can change any time in the future. Also, don't expect FFG to come out with new updated cards to replace the old out dated cards. They aren't good about doing that. You'll just have to remember what impact or anything else actually does and disregard what the card says.

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3 minutes ago, Mep said:

You guys thinking what is printed on a card FFG had printed up is actually hard set and true is just so cute. Seriously, it is reminder text and FFG don't care what is printed on the card. They change things a lot, even between the time of sending the text and formatting to the printer and the time the game actually comes out.  Expect what is printed on those cards to change and be adjusted as needed over time.

To know what impact does, you look it up in the most current rule set published. Even then, be in the mind set that can change any time in the future. Also, don't expect FFG to come out with new updated cards to replace the old out dated cards. They aren't good about doing that. You'll just have to remember what impact or anything else actually does and disregard what the card says.

I could care less what the cards actually say. I'm just enforcing the RRG. I can't wait for the day where all my alt arts are out of date because of an errata... <_<

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11 minutes ago, Mep said:

You guys thinking what is printed on a card FFG had printed up is actually hard set and true is just so cute. Seriously, it is reminder text and FFG don't care what is printed on the card. They change things a lot, even between the time of sending the text and formatting to the printer and the time the game actually comes out.  Expect what is printed on those cards to change and be adjusted as needed over time.

To know what impact does, you look it up in the most current rule set published. Even then, be in the mind set that can change any time in the future. Also, don't expect FFG to come out with new updated cards to replace the old out dated cards. They aren't good about doing that. You'll just have to remember what impact or anything else actually does and disregard what the card says.

You thinking I care what you think is just so cute. Seriously, the rules state that the cards take precedent, and both the Rules Reference Guide AND the card can be errata'd. The RRG is going to change over time, especially as they add new things to the game or realize that they forgot something or messed something up. Expect the RRG to change over time and be adjusted as needed.
To know what a card does, just look at the card. If there's questions, go to the RRG. Always check the errata to see if either has changed. 

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1 hour ago, HadeusHawkyns said:

The glossary is NOT meant to be comprehensive and exhaustive, but to clear up questions and complex rules interactions. 

So then I guess we ignore the very FIRST line of the entire RRG then?

"This document is the definitive source for all STAR WARS: LEGION rules."

 

Edited by pstalker

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Some interesting thinking going on :)

So what I taking from this is that based on the wording for Impact you'd only change the hit to a crit if attacking Armour. To me that makes sense as there is no need to do it for normal hits. As I write this though I would then wonder how that affects cover? I haven't go the rules to hand but don't crits ignore things like dodge and cover?

What is the feeling though on the first part of the query regarding the changing of surges to hits? Does this apply to ALL Stormtroopers that make up the unit, even if the heavy is an upgrade? Or does the heavy only get the 1 modifier, which is the one on it's card?

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9 minutes ago, Wolfstan said:

Some interesting thinking going on :)

So what I taking from this is that based on the wording for Impact you'd only change the hit to a crit if attacking Armour. To me that makes sense as there is no need to do it for normal hits. As I write this though I would then wonder how that affects cover? I haven't go the rules to hand but don't crits ignore things like dodge and cover?

What is the feeling though on the first part of the query regarding the changing of surges to hits? Does this apply to ALL Stormtroopers that make up the unit, even if the heavy is an upgrade? Or does the heavy only get the 1 modifier, which is the one on it's card?

Cover and Dodge will remove dice before Impact works. So you can't convert hits to crits in order to push damage through Cover.

I think the surge applies to the entire unit, including heavy weapons. This is the first time I've seen this asked, so I'll have to dig it up.

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38 minutes ago, Wolfstan said:

So what I taking from this is that based on the wording for Impact you'd only change the hit to a crit if attacking Armour. To me that makes sense as there is no need to do it for normal hits. 

Sure there is a need -- what if you are attacking a trooper with the "Guardian X" keyword?  

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Trying to catch up on this...

 

But am I right to assume that FFG might have made a mistake of describing the rules for IMPACT incorrectly in either the RR or on the cards?

And does IMPACT matter, in any way, when attacking a unit without armor?

My thought would be that what is written on the card is only a handy guide for the player what to do, so it mentions attacking a unit with armor since its meaningless to apply IMPACT when attacking a unit without armor, the end result is exactly the same.

 

And if its a mistake, its kind of a bummer to see mistakes like that present in the core set :/

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2 hours ago, pstalker said:

Sure there is a need -- what if you are attacking a trooper with the "Guardian X" keyword?  

Ok yeah I see that now. Just been reading the Rules Reference and dice adjustment order.

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4 hours ago, Wolfstan said:

Some interesting thinking going on :)

So what I taking from this is that based on the wording for Impact you'd only change the hit to a crit if attacking Armour. To me that makes sense as there is no need to do it for normal hits. As I write this though I would then wonder how that affects cover? I haven't go the rules to hand but don't crits ignore things like dodge and cover?

What is the feeling though on the first part of the query regarding the changing of surges to hits? Does this apply to ALL Stormtroopers that make up the unit, even if the heavy is an upgrade? Or does the heavy only get the 1 modifier, which is the one on it's card?

Yes crits ignore dodge and cover, but Dodge and Cover is applied in Step 5 of the attack sequence while Impact takes effect in Step 6.  In essence, the hit is removed by Dodge/Cover prior to it being changed to a crit by Impact.  This is why people are saying that Impact only matters against units with Armor as Armor is also applied in Step 6, after Impact takes effect.

As for offensive and defensive surge conversions, per the RRG pg.42 Surges:

Quote

Each unit card contains an offensive and a defensive surge
conversion chart that indicates whether that unit can
convert surge icons to other icons. If either of a unit’s surge
conversion charts are blank, that unit cannot convert the
associated surge result.

Notice this says "unit" not model, therefore every model in the unit can convert surges if the unit card has the offensive or defensive surge conversion.

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2 hours ago, Soulless said:

Trying to catch up on this...

 

But am I right to assume that FFG might have made a mistake of describing the rules for IMPACT incorrectly in either the RR or on the cards?

And does IMPACT matter, in any way, when attacking a unit without armor?

My thought would be that what is written on the card is only a handy guide for the player what to do, so it mentions attacking a unit with armor since its meaningless to apply IMPACT when attacking a unit without armor, the end result is exactly the same.

 

And if its a mistake, its kind of a bummer to see mistakes like that present in the core set :/

It's almost certainly a mistake. There was one when Armada released as well. FAQ and errata will fix everything so don't worry about it. 

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50 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

It's almost certainly a mistake. There was one when Armada released as well. FAQ and errata will fix everything so don't worry about it. 

Fingers  crossed they update the RRG rather than FAQs you need to cross reference against.

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15 minutes ago, Digimortal said:

Fingers  crossed they update the RRG rather than FAQs you need to cross reference against.

We are working under the assumption that FFG is going to handle the RRG for Legion identically to how they are for the L5R card game since neither game comes with a printed RRG in the core set.  With L5R they have published an updated RRG on the product website instead of releasing a separate FAQ.

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7 hours ago, Soulless said:

But am I right to assume that FFG might have made a mistake of describing the rules for IMPACT incorrectly in either the RR or on the cards?

. . . .

And if its a mistake, its kind of a bummer to see mistakes like that present in the core set :/

Yes, there was a mistake, but in their defense it's easy to overlook something small. A lot of times people assume something they say comes across clear when it may not be to others. It happens. It also doesn't help that these are gamers we're talking about- they'll try to come up with weird questions, ignore rules, look for loopholes, etc. (some of which is why we're even having this discussion to begin with) to try and game the system or twist things around to suit themselves. Even if they went full legal-ese on these documents, there might still be something that slipped through- and even if there wasn't it'd make everything longer and more complicated (and probably more expensive as a result).
 

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13 hours ago, Soulless said:

And does IMPACT matter, in any way, when attacking a unit without armor?

My thought would be that what is written on the card is only a handy guide for the player what to do, so it mentions attacking a unit with armor since its meaningless to apply IMPACT when attacking a unit without armor, the end result is exactly the same.

Yes, this would matter when attacking a Trooper Unit with the "Guardian X" keyword

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12 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

It's almost certainly a mistake. There was one when Armada released as well. FAQ and errata will fix everything so don't worry about it. 

Weeeeelllll, no one really thought you could stack your models during deployment. :ph34r:

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8 hours ago, Amanal said:

Weeeeelllll, no one really thought you could stack your models during deployment. :ph34r:

Hahaha I forgot about that. I was referring to the Most Wanted errata so squads don't get to add an additional die.

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