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Wolfstan

Modified dice query

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Played my 3rd game at the weekend, 1st one using the upgrade cards. Has thrown up a couple of queries.

Running Stormtrooper squads with a heavy. Stormtrooper card says that they can change a surge to a hit. Heavy card says he can change a hit to a crit. So as it reads we played it as thus. Changed a surge to a hit and then the hit to a crit. Is this correct basically?

The other query is the Aim command. Does that apply to melee? I can't see anywhere that specifically stats it only applies to Ranged weapons.

Really enjoying the game. It's good to see that any failures are down to dice rolls and not any overpowered units :)

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3 hours ago, Wolfstan said:

Played my 3rd game at the weekend, 1st one using the upgrade cards. Has thrown up a couple of queries.

Running Stormtrooper squads with a heavy. Stormtrooper card says that they can change a surge to a hit. Heavy card says he can change a hit to a crit. So as it reads we played it as thus. Changed a surge to a hit and then the hit to a crit. Is this correct basically?

The other query is the Aim command. Does that apply to melee? I can't see anywhere that specifically stats it only applies to Ranged weapons.

Really enjoying the game. It's good to see that any failures are down to dice rolls and not any overpowered units :)

You can only change the Hit to a Crit for the DLT-19 if you are shooting a unit that has Armor.  That is what Impact states

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20 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

You can only change the Hit to a Crit for the DLT-19 if you are shooting a unit that has Armor.  That is what Impact states

Impact happens with or without Armor keyword on target.  The armor part of the Impact rules just state the timing of when to apply the changes, not that it is dependent on the key word Armor to trigger.

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Alright, looks like this might be another wording issue.  Let's try this and see what kind of consensus we can come up with.

RRG pg. 4 (see rule #2)

Quote

The Golden Rules

The golden rules are fundamental concepts on which all
other rules are built.

  • If something in this reference contradicts the
    Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference
    takes precedence.
  • If an effect on a card or another component
    contradicts rules found in the Learn to Play booklet
    or Rules Reference, that component takes precedence.
  • If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect
    is absolute and cannot be overridden by other
    game effects.

 

RRG pg. 30

Quote

IMPACT X (WEAPON KEYWORD)
During the “Modify Attack Dice” step of an attack, a unit whose
attack pool includes a weapon that has the impact x keyword
can modify the results of the attack roll by changing hit (?)
results to critical (?) results. The unit can change a number of
hit (?) results to critical (?) results up to the value of x.

DLT-19 Stormtrooper upgrade card

Quote

image.png.02ba48c6c451b43d17ab54b22c12bb6b.png

So, if we take these three things into account it would appear to me, based on Golden Rule #2, that Impact only affects units with Armor, even though the RRG entry for Impact X doesn't make that distinction.

What do we think, does FFG need to clarify this or am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

Alright, looks like this might be another wording issue.  Let's try this and see what kind of consensus we can come up with.

RRG pg. 4 (see rule #2)

 

RRG pg. 30

DLT-19 Stormtrooper upgrade card

So, if we take these three things into account it would appear to me, based on Golden Rule #2, that Impact only affects units with Armor, even though the RRG entry for Impact X doesn't make that distinction.

What do we think, does FFG need to clarify this or am I missing something?

So I am not sure if it has been stated anywhere yet for this game, but in other FFG games the text inside of parentheses is considered "reminder text" and does not count towards the Golden Rule. However since the reminder is worded differently then the RRG I think some clarification is needed. I would assume the RRG just forgot to put the Armor requirement in there. Of course it could be the other way.

Edited by KingCHUD

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28 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

Alright, looks like this might be another wording issue.  Let's try this and see what kind of consensus we can come up with.

RRG pg. 4 (see rule #2)

 

RRG pg. 30

DLT-19 Stormtrooper upgrade card

So, if we take these three things into account it would appear to me, based on Golden Rule #2, that Impact only affects units with Armor, even though the RRG entry for Impact X doesn't make that distinction.

What do we think, does FFG need to clarify this or am I missing something?

Going forward, RRG is essentially the living text and I assume overrides anything on a card.  Here, the rules are different, but not actually in conflict.  Impact apparently lets you change to a crit in any attack regardless of the target, but the timing of when this change happens makes that crit irrelevant against anything except units with Armor.

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Just now, azavander said:

I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the rules say that that keywords affect the entire pool, not just the contributing dice.

It would make sense though that it's just the die. Can't imagine an E-11 doing too much damage. 

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4 minutes ago, AintNoPoser said:

It would make sense though that it's just the die. Can't imagine an E-11 doing too much damage. 

Under Attack Pool in the RRG:

Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool. » If a weapon has a keyword that allows a player to modify one or more dice in the attack pool, the player can use that effect to modify any dice in the attack pool, not just the dice that this weapon contributed.

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4 minutes ago, azavander said:

Under Attack Pool in the RRG:

Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool. » If a weapon has a keyword that allows a player to modify one or more dice in the attack pool, the player can use that effect to modify any dice in the attack pool, not just the dice that this weapon contributed.

Problem solved. And just for clarification, if you decided to use 2 die pools because you're attacking separate units, you can only apply keywords to those pools.

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You can modify the White E-11 dice if you roll a Crit or Miss with your reds.  I think the confusion comes from this:

"If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets, the attacker can modify only dice in the attack pool that the weapon with the impact x keyword contributed to"

That's just hazy enough that it can be read this way:

"If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets, the attacker can modify only dice that the weapon with the impact x keyword contributed to the attack pool"

But its important to consider the context of the bullet:

"If the attacker is performing an attack against multiple targets,"

This actually doesn't matter for Stormtroopers at all since you can only split the E-11's and DLT, but it matters for the AT-ST.  If, for example, you Arsenal 4 and attack with all of its weapons, you can split up to 4 attacks or combine them however you want.  Say you put the main and mortar into one target and the 88 Twin and Grenade into another (range bands and all).  The first pool has Impact 3 and the second has Impact 1.  You shoot the Grenade pool and get 5 hits against an armored target. You can swap 1 to a crit, but you can't spend the Impact 3 out of the first pool to modify it further.

 

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Just now, AintNoPoser said:

Problem solved. And just for clarification, if you decided to use 2 die pools because you're attacking separate units, you can only apply keywords to those pools.

I wonder how often that will actually happen.  Because "all weapons with an identical name must contribute their dice to the same attack pool."  Most people may just try go as big attack pool as possible just to try and eliminate as much as possible in the attack.  Far more situational.

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It can be useful to trigger suppression on multiple units, but at that point Impact and Armor almost certainly doesn't apply.

I've also had it come up when a weakened unit has an opportunity to finish off multiple near dead enemy units, but it was probably wiser to focus fire even then honestly.

Edited by LunarSol

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23 minutes ago, TerrorScream said:

just want to point out while the impact rules as written do work on all units and applies before armour cancels hit just remember cover/dodge is used before impact is applied, and turning hits to crits after that point is only relevant for the armour rule.

Impact only works on Armor. You cannot change a hit to a crit if the defender does not have Armor. Neonwolf already explained this.

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1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Impact only works on Armor. You cannot change a hit to a crit if the defender does not have Armor. Neonwolf already explained this.

Not according to the RRG version of the rule.  It just doesn't actually matter unless the defender has Armor.  There's not currently any situation in which a crit that is applied after the Dodge/Cover step matters except in the case of the Armor rule.

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3 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Not according to the RRG version of the rule.  It just doesn't actually matter unless the defender has Armor.  There's not currently any situation in which a crit that is applied after the Dodge/Cover step matters except in the case of the Armor rule.

Golden Rules state the card takes precedence over the RRG. Therefore, Impact ONLY works if the defender has Armor. 

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Just now, LunarSol said:

RRG pg 11

"Reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry."

"not an exhaustive description" does not mean "does not apply".

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7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

RRG pg 11

"Reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry."

RRG pg 4

"If an effect on a card or another component contradicts rules found in the Learn to Play booklet or Rules Reference, that component takes precedence."

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I would tend to agree. The rules are most clear when you have as much relevant stuff in one place as you can. I also play Infinity, which has rule caveats written all over the place so you can't always claim you understand a rule just from reading that rule's page, lol.

In this case, you need to take the wording of the card in combination with the Impact glossary entry to fully understand the rule. I'm sure they will amend this in an FAQ to add the "armor" requirement in the glossary entry.

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