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Interfering in streamed games

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2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Man, people are going to be upset at Worlds, GenCon, and NOVA, because we report improper gamestates to judges.

I literally did it twice at last worlds... and you can't stop me.

Will you get upset if the judge says it's too late to go back?

I think you may be missing the point.

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1 minute ago, DragoonKainKatarn said:

Will you get upset if the judge says it's too late to go back?

I think you may be missing the point.

Like, yes and no?

They're allowed to make the ruling. Rulings get made all the time I don't agree with.

But, no, some of the points here have been "people shouldn't even report it! Sometimes gamestates are missed in some games, so they shouldn't be corrected in any game!"

And... no. 

giphy.gif

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Reporting an improper game state to judges is fine ... ****, even in person people saying 'I think you've got an illegal game state ... do you want me to tell you, or shall I get a judge?" is fine too ...

I think the issue here is, and always has been that stream viewers, and stream organizers can, with no context whatsoever start up an internet witch-hunt based on a perception of an incorrect game state ... how many games have I watched where a streamer has to dash to the table to check damage cards, or shields on ships.  Streams are not infallible, they make mistakes ... streamers have to use discretion in engaging a judge.

But that is the start and end of my point.  If you spot a game state violation, you may inform a judge.  You *must not* directly intervene in the game. It breached tournament rules... we don't have many tournament rules, but that is one of them.

Dion does great work for the community, people appreciate his input (his Patreon is at $1100/episode - that tells me something about the value that people put on his work) ... and every time I have watched that stream, he has directly interfered in a game, be it yelled time checks, reminding players of a crit effect, reminders to put a stress on ... sometimes the interference has been timely, other times not and have impacted the game where a judge might have dealt with it differently.

I'd like to see all streamers adhere to the tournament rules, either by raising concerns to a judge themselves (or even offering to be a judge for the weekend - that's an innovative thought). 

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4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But, no, some of the points here have been "people shouldn't even report it! Sometimes gamestates are missed in some games, so they shouldn't be corrected in any game!"

My issue in the discussion is that somehow someone is coming across that a game is "tarnished" because there may have been a misstep that didn't get reported. 

That idea is just silly. X-Wing is a game of constant goofs, bumped ships, moved obstacles, missed opportunities and gamestate mistakes. Everyone tries to catch what they can, but you can't say someone's win was "tarnished" or undeserved if both opponents and the judge were happy with how the game was progressing, even if all three of them were mistaken.

I'm also wary about the idea of encouraging  the faceless masses of the Internet to interfere in a match if a streamer opts to not interfere in a match. Do we really want to encourage people literally calling judges?

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9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Man, people are going to be upset at Worlds, GenCon, and NOVA, because we report improper gamestates to judges.

I literally did it twice at last worlds... and you can't stop me.

according to tournament rules youre cheating then?

I understand the impulse to say something, but if it clearly says in writing that your behaviour is cheating you should stop. 

this is why I dont do tournaments anymore. 

instead of having fun everyone is bent on being a rules lawyer and wants their own system in place (myself included, lol)

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2 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

according to tournament rules youre cheating then?

I understand the impulse to say something, but if it clearly says in writing that your behaviour is cheating you should stop. 

this is why I dont do tournaments anymore. 

instead of having fun everyone is bent on being a rules lawyer and wants their own system in place (myself included, lol)

How is reporting.improper game states to judges cheating?

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1 minute ago, Vontoothskie said:

according to tournament rules youre cheating then?

I understand the impulse to say something, but if it clearly says in writing that your behaviour is cheating you should stop. 

this is why I dont do tournaments anymore. 

instead of having fun everyone is bent on being a rules lawyer and wants their own system in place (myself included, lol)

I literally did not cheat. 

olhIUUu.png

 

I'm sorry you do not do tournaments, but separately, rules are there for them. 

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13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I literally did not cheat. 

olhIUUu.png

 

I'm sorry you do not do tournaments, but separately, rules are there for them. 

if i highlighted the other half of that segment then you would be cheating, as "spectators must not disturb an ongoing game". 

thats kinda my point though. its vague and specific at the same time, but clearly the intent is to keep 3rd parties out of the game. there are judges, and if you arent a player or a judge, then with extremely rare exeptions you stay out of it.  

i watched a stream where player A appeared to be purposefully bumping his ships to adjust their position every move, but when halfway through turn 5 or whatever player B accidentally nudged once the streamer interupted the game to complain. thats cheating. 

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4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

 

its vague and specific at the same time, but clearly the intent is to keep 3rd parties out of the game. there are judges, and if you arent a player or a judge, then with extremely rare exeptions you stay out of it.  

 

Actually, the intent 'clearly' is that you should do something if you notice rules being broken, but you should do so through a judge.

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8 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

if i highlighted the other half of that segment then you would be cheating, as "spectators must not disturb an ongoing game". 

thats kinda my point though. its vague and specific at the same time, but clearly the intent is to keep 3rd parties out of the game. there are judges, and if you arent a player or a judge, then with extremely rare exeptions you stay out of it.  

It's not really vague. Contacting the judge doesn't interfere with their game - the judge does (if he/she) desire. 

 

9 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

i watched a stream where player A appeared to be purposefully bumping his ships to adjust their position every move, but when halfway through turn 5 or whatever player B accidentally nudged once the streamer interupted the game to complain. thats cheating. 

Absolutely. I agree.

 

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Story time: our regional, very last table in the 4th of 5 rounds (both 0-3). I know both players because the salt mines are my home place. I was watching the last few minutes, and basically said that I would technically have to get a judge because they were missing a game state violation. They were rolling their eyes, laughing it off and said I should just tell them. They were missing a crit effect (-1 agility), the player rerolled and that was game. It might have changed some MoV but definitely did not change the winner. Still, technically I did interfere as spectator and that was wrong by the rules. I do think there is a difference between streamed games at the top tables where the judges will be close by, or the salt mines where both players were just having fun and enjoying a friendly game.

I have (rarely) corrected adjacent games (via judge calls).

I have also called judges for similar effects (too many dice because weapons failure), and someone improperly did tractor (2nd tractor effect, wanted to move the ship then).

All were caught in time to rectify.


I will continue to do it.

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Just now, LordBlades said:

Actually, the intent 'clearly' is that you should do something if you notice rules being broken, but you should do so through a judge.

i would disagree. but therin lies the issue.

"Dont interfere" and "see something, say something" are contradictory.

it needs tobe clarified. 

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It's also worth remembering that spectators are under no obligation to be impartial, while that is the perhaps the most important part of being a judge.

Why should we assume that fans are impartial, isn't it safer to assume the opposite? How do we tell the difference between fans who selectively correct game state based on whether it advantages the person or list they want to see win? Before you say that's crazy, go and re-watch Jeremy's top 8 match against Jean. Jeremy forgets to remove his target lock when he uses it to re-roll a harpoon dice (~4h29m), it gets noticed by the Twitch chat but no one informs the judge and no one has a serious problem with it. Many of the exact same people then lose their minds when the harpooned condition doesn't go off in the final. Only the spectators in question know why they reacted differently, but that sure looks like preferential treatment based on the opponents, gravity of the game, fandom, etc.

Doesn't that make you suspicious of fans assuming essentially an assistant judge role whenever they want to?

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1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

It's not really vague. Contacting the judge doesn't interfere with their game - the judge does (if he/she) desire. 

 

Absolutely. I agree.

 

I have (rarely) corrected adjacent games (via judge calls).

I have also called judges for similar effects (too many dice because weapons failure), and someone improperly did tractor (2nd tractor effect, wanted to move the ship then).

All were caught in time to rectify.


I will continue to do it.

sounds like you need to be a judge.

im not against what youre doing, btw. sounds like good calls. I get super pissed when rules arent followed because it really does determine the outcome, but i also think that whatever the system is is how the game needs to go. too many cooks in the kitchen etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

sounds like you need to be a judge.

im not against what youre doing, btw. sounds like good calls. I get super pissed when rules arent followed because it really does determine the outcome, but i also think that whatever the system is is how the game needs to go. too many cooks in the kitchen etc. 

I mean, you're not wrong there (cooks in kitchen). 

FFG could clarify/solidify the system as a whole to encourage it.

But yeah, I just dont see a problem with following the mandatory effects when able to correct it. Yeah, people miss stuff, it happens, but we want to work towards good gamestates, not made up ones. So to the extent I am allowed, I correct it (again, via judge, since that's the avenue allowed). 

I will never, ever, remind people of bombs they haven't used, ask them what mods they still have, etc - it's inherently a leading question, and literally affects the game via decision making.

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8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

It really doesn't.

 

do you believe the word "yes" and the word "no" mean the same thing? 

because the rule as written is "no-yes"

in most game states a No always counters a Yes unless otherwise stated, so im going with the No.

edited cause that came across arguementative. meant as a real question

Edited by Vontoothskie

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13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

„Don‘t interfere yourself actively“

“See something, say something to a judge“

No clarification necessary

This, the judge is not part of the game, so calling a judge is not interfering.

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29 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

Before you say that's crazy, go and re-watch Jeremy's top 8 match against Jean. Jeremy forgets to remove his target lock when he uses it to re-roll a harpoon dice (~4h29m), it gets noticed by the Twitch chat but no one informs the judge and no one has a serious problem with it.

Nobody had a serious problem with it because (1) we were operating under the assumption that the players would probably catch it (which they eventually did), and (2) because while a re-used TL might make a difference in the game, Quickdraw surviving for extra rounds is definitely going to have a real, not speculative, impact on the game.  (Including, most likely, ending it right there.)

The situations are different, and of different magnitude, and because we're human beings, we're (well, most of us are) able to process those differences and weigh them against alternatives to make a decision.

That said, I very much appreciate when people are all "must follow the rules, 100%, everything must be absolutely consistent, alway," because it makes it significantly easier for me to determine who's not worth reading or listening to.

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28 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

It's also worth remembering that spectators are under no obligation to be impartial, while that is the perhaps the most important part of being a judge.

Why should we assume that fans are impartial, isn't it safer to assume the opposite? How do we tell the difference between fans who selectively correct game state based on whether it advantages the person or list they want to see win? Before you say that's crazy, go and re-watch Jeremy's top 8 match against Jean. Jeremy forgets to remove his target lock when he uses it to re-roll a harpoon dice (~4h29m), it gets noticed by the Twitch chat but no one informs the judge and no one has a serious problem with it. Many of the exact same people then lose their minds when the harpooned condition doesn't go off in the final. Only the spectators in question know why they reacted differently, but that sure looks like preferential treatment based on the opponents, gravity of the game, fandom, etc.

Doesn't that make you suspicious of fans assuming essentially an assistant judge role whenever they want to?

To be fair, he could have guidance chipped that die. And for all we know, that's what he did, pretending to reroll to trigger stream watchers.

Source: I was the first one to call it out, because it was meaningless but would trigger discussions :P Bonus: I've played Jean once (on stream!) and he's a nice guy while I've only seen Jeremy from afar at Naboo, so I'm obviously heavily biased.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

I literally did not cheat. 

olhIUUu.png

I'm sorry you do not do tournaments, but separately, rules are there for them. 

I know you like precision. Look at the first sentence again. Whether it was their intent or not (because, why not get intent into this mess?), they say it's "an individual at a tournament." We could argue semantics with telepresence and all, but stream watchers are not generally at the event itself, that would be way too meta and a waste of a data plan. With telepresence, it is generally assumed that both parties know exactly who is where, which is not the case with streams since one party is basically anonymous to the other and cannot interact except through third party actually at the event.

I have a perfect solution though: have a screen reader read out Twitch chat on a large speaker in event halls, so that Twitch chat would in effect be present to all players remotely. I see no drawbacks to that plan :D 

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