Discuss Leo and Finn

[Jobu 720]

I was taking a look at them and have thoughts.

In general.  they have spoiled 3 out of the 5 investigators.  All of them have a 1 in one stat.  That may be a theme or it may be happenstance.  I will note Silas does not have a 1 in any stat.  Maire does have a 1 in one stat.  Note saying its a sure thing, but inferring from the info we have.

Leo is going to be interesting especially with his ally focus.

• You want to load up on allies.
• You only have 1 ally slot so unless you can get Mitch out first, you will be running into bumps there.  I believe if you play Mitch second, you will have to get your other ally out of play.  Plus you only have 1 Mitch in the deck.
• Current ways to mitigate this is to use Calling in Favors (although even drawing 9 cards doesn't get you great odds to a single card at the start) and purchase Charisma.  I think both may be must haves for him.
• Hopefully he will have a secondary class of Survivor (will as his other high stat suggests this).   There are a lot of ally effects in that class, although they are light on non-unique allies.
• Who knows what other player cards are coming out in the set that may support his ally-ness.

Finn looks cool to, I am almost positive he will be a seeker secondary.  Evasion seems to be played up a lot in this set.  A one Will and 7 Sanity.  Ouch, I though Skids was hard.

 

[StormyWaters 124]

Finn is like Skids 2.0.  When I first saw the card I was expecting his signature asset to start in play and somehow mitigate that 1 willpower but that's not the case.  I'm not sure I would ever take him over any of the other rogue investigators.  That said it seems like this cycle wants to push evasion as a mechanic so I guess we'll see. 

[KBlumhardt 378]

After seeing these revealed, we have:

Guardian - Leo Anderson

Seeker - Ursula Downs

Rogue - Finn Edwards

 

Now that we have a bit more info, I think it's a fairly safe bet that we're getting:

Survivor - Calvin Wright

 

Since that puts us at 3 male and 1 female investigator, I'm going to make the crazy prediction that we're finally going to get...

Mystic - Marie Lambeau

 

She's waaaay past due (and I'm saying that as someone who got her with the Investigators book preorder), and if they're going to have a female Mystic, it only makes sense to be her at this point. 

 

[Jobu 720]

New theories on Leo:

• He is a Guardian/Survivor
• He is like Mark, but can put in level zero ally cards instead of tactics.
• He is like Marie, but can put but l0-5 allies instead of spells.  (I could see a number of variants of this)
• The whole news article is a hoax and we won't be seeing Leo.

55 minutes ago, StormyWaters said:

Finn is like Skids 2.0.  When I first saw the card I was expecting his signature asset to start in play and somehow mitigate that 1 willpower but that's not the case.  I'm not sure I would ever take him over any of the other rogue investigators.  That said it seems like this cycle wants to push evasion as a mechanic so I guess we'll see. 

Yeah, so far we have seen Finn and Ursula as well as the spell Mist of R'lyeh (which I will be shocked if it doesn't help you evade).  I suppose Leo will be left out of that part of the expansion.

While Skids has low will, I think thematically he is all about resources, actions and the economy around that, the intent seems to be he is hot on resources, spends it on extra actions and then later becomes super poor when his debts come due.  He is about resource management turned up to 11.  Skids is also pretty mediocre at clue getting, I have seen him do well, but it involves a lot of higher XP cards to pull it off consistently.  With guardian as his secondary, he can also be good at killing the monsters, but again that takes a lot of setup.  Skids biggest issue isn't his low Will or confusing stat line.  Its the fact that no matter how many resources he has or can generate, he always needs more: to play cards, to boost stats (which he needs), to gain extra actions and to pay off debts.

I have a player in my current game that is running Skids.  He is built to evade enemies, mitigate sanity loss and get clues.  His entire deck would be better if he had Finn.

In contrast, it appears Finn is more about evading monsters and getting clues (Rogues are pretty bad at clueing in general, even guardians can start with evidence).  It looks like Finn can grab clues with very little effort and minimal support.

I like his signature weapon, it helps his theme.  Sure you can shoot an enemy twice, but you could just as easily evade that enemy, trigger any other evade abilities (pickpocket anyone?) then shot him once for 1 less ammo.  Plus that evade is free.

[Jobu 720]

6 minutes ago, KBlumhardt said:

After seeing these revealed, we have:

Guardian - Leo Anderson

Seeker - Ursula Downs

Rogue - Finn Edwards

 

Now that we have a bit more info, I think it's a fairly safe bet that we're getting:

Survivor - Calvin Wright

 

Since that puts us at 3 male and 1 female investigator, I'm going to make the crazy prediction that we're finally going to get...

Mystic - Marie Lambeau

 

She's waaaay past due (and I'm saying that as someone who got her with the Investigators book preorder), and if they're going to have a female Mystic, it only makes sense to be her at this point. 

 

There is a lot of speculation here, but if I had to bet on an outcome, this is what I would bet on.

I will go a step further.  If this theory holds up, I wouldn't be surprised if all the investigators in the pack had deck building requirements like Marie.

[rsdockery 537]

Seems pretty reasonable. Plus, as somebody pointed out on the subreddit, all three spoiled investigators have an extra action as their ability as well as Marie's 1/3/4/4 statline.

[Soakman 987]

Finn looks super fun. I've never played a low will investigator, but he looks really good otherwise. 

The illicit keyword lets him use his signature to search for a variety of fun cards (burglary [his investigate is great!], Chicago Typewriter [he can spend additional actions for the typewriter and still evade!], knuckleduster [giving an enemy retaliate doesn't much matter if you can exhaust them first], liquid courage [for his low sanity], pickpocketing [he'll be evading a LOT].

I don't know why, but I always gravitate toward the rogues in this game and they are not even my typical go-to class for other games. He looks really fun. Should maybe pair him up with Carolyn.

Leo looks great, but anything that enhances allies is going to look great. They are the best cards in the game to get in play. They have very few downsides and give you additional sanity/health in a way, which make them surprisingly replaceable already. He's going to be very strong.

[iGniGhted 113]

FFG has a real problem with the left and right hand to be honest. . one has no f'n clue what the other is doing.. I knew beforehand Leo Anderson would be strong, as everyone knows he is always ally heavy in most games he's featured in. That said.. he is a gruff older man with an 8/6 spread, 3 possible allies from his signature alone, and with Charisma that gives him even more capability to pick up stronger unique allies. Some allies are in general, busted, and the abuse i can already foresee here is already obvious without seeing some of the new allies that will be introduced this time around. 

 

i really feel like they have 2 creative departments working on this team, one is pumping out extremely powerful cards, and the other is between making okay cards and binder filler. You would've thought they learned their lesson from the LoTR LCG to not create issues where you would permanently see a card being played from the core box until it's death. Leo de Luca isn't the Louisiana Lion, he's the steward of Gondor. maybe balance is just impossible.. i dunno.. but, sometimes you should just know these things before you decide to print them.

[Soakman 987]

I totally get where you're coming from, but as a co-op game, I can choose to ignore Leo and don't feel like I'm not meeting some competitive bar. I enjoy pushing cards to make them more capable than they at first seem. Leo is going to be very powerful, but having created a custom investigator that starts a campaign with an additional ally slot; it's not game breaking. 

It would be if you had to simply survive for X rounds, but in this game you have a timer as well. You can't just recycle allies and never die and instawin. His statline, however, makes him very formidable at everything else that you will need to do. Agility is a useful stat to have, but not an essential one to win a game. Putting it at 1 and allowing his other stats to soar is going to matter more than the extra ally slots in my opinion.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Soakman

[Jobu 720]

19 minutes ago, Soakman said:

Finn looks super fun. I've never played a low will investigator, but he looks really good otherwise. 

....

Its rough, you can go from perfectly fine to one bad draw from being eliminated in well, one bad draw.  Its those treachery cards that cause horror for failing a  test that can hit for 3 since you will most likely be getting a zero.  I know there are similar cards for health and agility, but it seems horror pops up more often

 

[Radix2309 355]

9 minutes ago, iGniGhted said:

FFG has a real problem with the left and right hand to be honest. . one has no f'n clue what the other is doing.. I knew beforehand Leo Anderson would be strong, as everyone knows he is always ally heavy in most games he's featured in. That said.. he is a gruff older man with an 8/6 spread, 3 possible allies from his signature alone, and with Charisma that gives him even more capability to pick up stronger unique allies. Some allies are in general, busted, and the abuse i can already foresee here is already obvious without seeing some of the new allies that will be introduced this time around. 

 

i really feel like they have 2 creative departments working on this team, one is pumping out extremely powerful cards, and the other is between making okay cards and binder filler. You would've thought they learned their lesson from the LoTR LCG to not create issues where you would permanently see a card being played from the core box until it's death. Leo de Luca isn't the Louisiana Lion, he's the steward of Gondor. maybe balance is just impossible.. i dunno.. but, sometimes you should just know these things before you decide to print them.

Let's wait and see what allies he can actually use.

Also you can already use Charisma twice with other Investigators. None of them have become broken in any way.

You aren't going to be able to use his ability every turn, and even so, the impact isn't as great as you are saying.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Leo does look really strong, but we haven't seen the back of his card.  It's conceivable he could be the first one who can't get to Level 5 even in their main class.  Or that his deck is excessively large compared to the others.  He could have multiple copies of Bought in Blood, although the article not mentioning makes me think that's unlikely 2 or 3 of those in the deck would both fit thematically and be a pretty hefty offset to that otherwise awesome ability.

Also worth considering that while allies are awesome, they also tend to be expensive, and Guardians don't have much in the way of resource generation.  This has been my problem with Mark - lots of card draw that you can't pay for.  Even with the cost reduction I suspect you're going to have issues both drawing into and paying for all the allies he could theoretically have.

[iGniGhted 113]

i think the real issue is the abilty to have a ton of cheap allies in play to absorb damage and sanity loss. . it would've make a lot more sense if he was a lot stat investigator, such as Ashcan Pete, maybe 5 health 6 sanity, or even 6/6. He's an elderly man after all, is he still really as tough as say Skids or Yorick? i had the same issue with the theme with Wendy Adams in the core box, so i guess i'm just beating a dead horse at this point.  Still, even if they did make him a 5/6 or 6/6, his stat line, it's just tailor made to have him be good. 4 Willpower AND Strength, and a 3 for Intellect which, in addition to his allies that will inevitably be piling up over the course of a game, will only get higher. even if he can only take Guardian allies, he's got 2 cost guard dogs and 3 cost beat cops he can put into play for a free action. id be surprised if Leo ever takes damage...

i do agree that we're able to ignore certain cards, such as Leo De Luca, which i do, but Leo Anderson is a favorite of mine and i just like some balance.. i also just wanted the Springfield 1903 to be good, but i guess that i'm asking for too much. oh, and one more small thing, i think it's stupid Mark Harrigan has a Tommy Gun on his card art, but can't use it. again, left hand, right hand...

[Buhallin 4,563]

5 minutes ago, iGniGhted said:

even if he can only take Guardian allies, he's got 2 cost guard dogs and 3 cost beat cops he can put into play for a free action. id be surprised if Leo ever takes damage...

Having played Yorick I can say that this doesn't work nearly as well as you might think it will.  Leo can do it cheaper, sure, but Yorick can arguably do it better via his recursion.  Not the least bit broken.

[Jobu 720]

Are we overstating how powerful Leo Anderson is? 

I mean he basically pays 1 less for allies and plays one as a free action a round.

His 4-3-4-1 is a very nice spread.  But remember he is still a Guardian.  He will pick up some clues, but he is going to spend most of his actions handling enemies.

If you get his signature out you have two more non-unique ally slots.  That's a big if.  I don't know about you all, but in half the games I play, my signature is in the bottom half of my deck (the other half its on the bottom of my deck). 

There are things you can do to mitigate that but now you are looking at 4-6 slots being taken up by allies, 2-4 slots that help you fish for Mitch and now suddenly a third of your deck is set up around either getting Mitch or only usable for when you have Mitch out. 

I also want to mention my buddies Aschan deck.  He has 2 L2 Petes and 2 L3 Aquinnah's (and Charisma).  Plus 2 True Grit.  Also a pair of leather coats.  And two Holy Rosaries.  Plus 2 pluckies.  And of course Duke is always around and Francis Morgan started tagging along.  Its a good, solid deck, even better than a straight soak deck because of Pete's potential infinite horror soak and Aquinah's ability to just avoid health damage and kill enemies at the same time for no actions.  Despite all this (or maybe because of it), there are times where he is very close to being eliminated and has to worry about that.  He just added a copy of Devil's Luck, that may make him more secure.  The key point is that even with all that, he is hardly immune to taking damage.  I can't see Leo Anderson doing that much better.

As an aside, I have a hope that we will see a higher level Machete somewhere in this cycle. 

 

[Buhallin 4,563]

15 minutes ago, Jobu said:

As an aside, I have a hope that we will see a higher level Machete somewhere in this cycle. 

Total tangent, but why?  Most people already consider Machete an absolute auto-include for Guardians and a very solid choice for anyone doing even a little fighting who can take it.  Do we really need a better version of the best weapon out there?

[Jobu 720]

2 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Total tangent, but why?  Most people already consider Machete an absolute auto-include for Guardians and a very solid choice for anyone doing even a little fighting who can take it.  Do we really need a better version of the best weapon out there?

Because its a good card, but could be more interesting and a favorite and we will be trekking through jungles, which machetes are useful for.  Just like L0 Leo is a good card but L1 Leo is better.

I don't even think it needs to be to high, maybe in the 1-3 range, give a an additional +1 to hit and/or some ability that allows you move better by exhausting it (maybe you cant attack with it if you exhausted it as well).

Also the choice between upgrading a card with xp is more nuanced than including a L0 card in your starting deck.

[cheapmate 182]

In the original Arkham Horror Mitch Brown went insane and was placed in an asylum after joining Leo on his latest expedition.

Shame they’re not consistent with the lore.

[Jobu 720]

6 minutes ago, cheapmate said:

In the original Arkham Horror Mitch Brown went insane and was placed in an asylum after joining Leo on his latest expedition.

Shame they’re not consistent with the lore.

I thought its pretty on point.

" Anderson took seven men with him into the Yucatan. Two came back-- more or less. Technically, three men made it out of that jungle alive, but Mitch Brown's not exactly himself anymore. As a point of fact, he's a blithering madman now, and has already been shipped off to the asylum."

I am sure Mitch will be going insane in the Yucatan and heading to the asylum in a lot of games we play.  I mean he may inexplicably have recovered and join you for your next scenario, but those are the lot of LCGs v RPGs.

[Radix2309 355]

46 minutes ago, Jobu said:

Because its a good card, but could be more interesting and a favorite and we will be trekking through jungles, which machetes are useful for.  Just like L0 Leo is a good card but L1 Leo is better.

I don't even think it needs to be to high, maybe in the 1-3 range, give a an additional +1 to hit and/or some ability that allows you move better by exhausting it (maybe you cant attack with it if you exhausted it as well).

Also the choice between upgrading a card with xp is more nuanced than including a L0 card in your starting deck.

It won't be extra damage. Doing 3+ damage is a higher level effect.

They would probably give it a combat bonus, and maybe a cost reduction or other effect. Similar to what they did with the .45.

[Jobu 720]

10 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

It won't be extra damage. Doing 3+ damage is a higher level effect.

They would probably give it a combat bonus, and maybe a cost reduction or other effect. Similar to what they did with the .45.

I am confused, are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me?  I never implied it should do more damage.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Jobu
would --> should

[cheapmate 182]

42 minutes ago, Jobu said:

" Anderson took seven men with him into the Yucatan. Two came back-- more or less. Technically, three men made it out of that jungle alive, but Mitch Brown's not exactly himself anymore. As a point of fact, he's a blithering madman now, and has already been shipped off to the asylum."

I had forgotten that the last expedition he was in (according his backstory in Arkham Horror) was in the Yucatan.

Would be cool if the Forgotten Age served as a prequel of sorts to Leo’s arrival to Arkham in the Dunwich Horror expansion.

[Astrophil84 50]

Wild guess: Calvin Wright‘s stat line will be 4/1/4/3 or 4/1/3/4.

[KBlumhardt 378]

1 hour ago, Astrophil84 said:

Wild guess: Calvin Wright‘s stat line will be 4/1/4/3 or 4/1/3/4.

I agree.

[Eldan985 360]

Maybe not the Machete, but I'd like to see some higher-level melee weapons for guardians in general. My Zoey deck makes do with Machetes and Fire Axes because they are just cooler for that character, but the damage output really starts to suffer. Or maybe some kind of talent that works with melee weapons? Fencing Master.