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Stormbourne

Jal- Shey Universal F&D tree V1.2

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fore warning this does have some filler traits that i am happy to remove once better ideas come to replace them

Jal-Shey

Career skills: FR1

 

Public speaker:

When acquired pick two of Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation these two permanently become career skills

 

Sense emotions:

Add B to all Charm, Coercion, and Deception checks unless the target is immune to Force powers.

 

Galactic Wanderer:

astrogation becomes a career skill

 

Engineer:

mechanics becomes career skills

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Force Weave:

May dedicate force dice equal ranks in force weave to imbue and item with a force power

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Smooth talker:

When first acquired, choose 1 skill; Charm, Coercion, Deception, or Negotiation. When making checks with that skill, spend x to gain additional s equal to ranks in Smooth Talker.

 

Inventor:

When constructing new items or modifying attachments, add B or remove b per rank of  Inventor.

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Gear Head:

Remove b per rank of Gear head from Mechanics checks. Halve the credit cost to add mods to attachments.

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Nobody's fool:

Upgrade the difficulty of incoming Charm, Coercion, or Deception checks once per rank of Nobody’s Fool.

 

Public speaker:

When acquired pick two of Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership, or Negotiation these two permanently become career skills

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Gear Head:

Remove b per rank of Gear head from Mechanics checks. Halve the credit cost to add mods to attachments.

 

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Force Weave:

May dedicate force dice equal ranks in force weave to imbue and item with a force power

 

 

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Pacifist:

While unarmed upgrade all social checks once.

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Force Weave:

May dedicate force dice equal ranks in force weave to imbue and item with a force power

 

Smooth talker:

When first acquired, choose 1 skill; Charm, Coercion, Deception, or Negotiation. When making checks with that skill, spend x to gain additional s equal to ranks in Smooth Talker.

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Force Rating:

Gain +1 force rating

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Improved Pacifist:

May use Pacifist while armed with a single weapon of encumbrance 2 or less. if used this way add tt to the roll

 

Force Rating:

Gain +1 force rating

 

Improved Force Weave:

When imbuing an item may dedicate additional force dice to increase the wielders force rating while using the imbued power

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Supreme Force Weave:

may imbue a second force power into a single item

 

force weave rules

Before the session starts force user must announce that they are attempting to imbue an item. that force user then commits force dice equal to the force power rating (the amount of force dice needed to use the power) of a power they know, for the entire session or longer (GM's discretion).

After the designated time has elapsed the force user then makes a daunting (dddd) astrogation check upgraded by the force power's rating (e.g. protect = dccc, heal = dddc) + B for the each of the players uncommitted force dice

A success means that the base power can be activated, while advantages say what upgrades are available (advantages cannot be spent on upgrades the force user does not have).

Each item may only be imbued with one power at any one time.

Edited by Stormbourne

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So one major problem right off the bat is that this spec has Force talents (which requires the PC to have a Force Rating), but doesn't itself provide a Force Rating.

If this is going to be a universal specialization open to any PC, then instead of bonus career skills it should provide Force Rating 1.

Also, it seems a fair bit of what this spec is trying to do is covered by the Armorer spec from Keeping the Peace and Artisan from the core book while also piling in social skills.  This seems like way too much of a "one stop shopping" in terms of things offered, having less a coherent theme and more of a "I want all these cool things but don't want to buy extra specializations for them!" vibe instead, which is never a good thing.

Force Weave as written is way too nebulous.  Instead of being a ranked talent, I'd say use the Imbue Item and Intuitive Improvements talents from Artisan.

Improved Pacifist is simply way too good, as the PC has little incentive to not carry weapons (simply buy Enhance to boost Brawn and/or add Force dice to Brawl checks) and be functionally immune to attacks.  That's a game-breaker right there, and no sane GM would allow that at their table.

This spec is far less of a game-breaker than the bulk of your other homebrew material, but it's still got a lot of work needed to make it even reasonably balanced.

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5 hours ago, damnkid3 said:

Sense Emotions is not a ranked talent, so you don't need it twice.  I only recently realized this with the Oggdude character builder.

indeed it is very well

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So one major problem right off the bat is that this spec has Force talents (which requires the PC to have a Force Rating), but doesn't itself provide a Force Rating.

If this is going to be a universal specialization open to any PC, then instead of bonus career skills it should provide Force Rating 1.

Also, it seems a fair bit of what this spec is trying to do is covered by the Armorer spec from Keeping the Peace and Artisan from the core book while also piling in social skills.  This seems like way too much of a "one stop shopping" in terms of things offered, having less a coherent theme and more of a "I want all these cool things but don't want to buy extra specializations for them!" vibe instead, which is never a good thing.

Force Weave as written is way too nebulous.  Instead of being a ranked talent, I'd say use the Imbue Item and Intuitive Improvements talents from Artisan.

Improved Pacifist is simply way too good, as the PC has little incentive to not carry weapons (simply buy Enhance to boost Brawn and/or add Force dice to Brawl checks) and be functionally immune to attacks.  That's a game-breaker right there, and no sane GM would allow that at their table.

This spec is far less of a game-breaker than the bulk of your other homebrew material, but it's still got a lot of work needed to make it even reasonably balanced.

well this is universal tree for F&D but then again every other tree in F&D give FR1 for purchasing it i'll make that it's fourth "career skill"

from what i could find on the Jal-shey they where master diplomats and craftsmen, with the latter going so far as to be able to imbue their items with the force, and that's what im aiming for with the tree a mix of social and mechanics based traits

Force weave is supposed to show the skill of craftsmen ship the jal-shey had and am hesitant  to remove it form the tree as it is the major selling point that the tree has, other then that the jal-shey practitioner must know the power being imbued and the one wearing the imbued item must meet the force power rating to use it

pacifist and improved pacifist is one of those filler traits i mentioned before and so have no problem removing maybe for intuitive improvements

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6 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Sorry, what is a Jal-Shey? It's hard to comment without some context on what this is supposed to represent.

ah sorry Jal-shey is a neutral/light side force group that where renowned diplomats, and specialized in imbuing the force into objects. as such i made this tree to be a mech/diplomat hybrid with some cool powers mainly force weave

Edited by Stormbourne

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I have no idea what force weave is supposed to do.  Why do I need to imbue an item to activate a force power?  I can already activate force powers.  

Beyond that, the process of imbuing is overly complex.  The dice calculation is very much at odds with FFG's design philosophies.  While there are plenty of talents that can not be completely understood from the text in the talent tree, this goes well beyond anything else in the game that I can think of.  And even then, it is still very vague.  Force dice are committed for non-specific lengths of time?  How do I know how many advantages I need to unlock a given upgrade?  Do I need to unlock prerequisite upgrades first?  How much do they cost?

Also, be careful to use language consistent with the language in the game.  For example, force dice are "committed", not "dedicated".  "Imbue" is already used in the game.

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8 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I have no idea what force weave is supposed to do.  Why do I need to imbue an item to activate a force power?  I can already activate force powers.  

Beyond that, the process of imbuing is overly complex.  The dice calculation is very much at odds with FFG's design philosophies.  While there are plenty of talents that can not be completely understood from the text in the talent tree, this goes well beyond anything else in the game that I can think of.  And even then, it is still very vague.  Force dice are committed for non-specific lengths of time?  How do I know how many advantages I need to unlock a given upgrade?  Do I need to unlock prerequisite upgrades first?  How much do they cost?

Also, be careful to use language consistent with the language in the game.  For example, force dice are "committed", not "dedicated".  "Imbue" is already used in the game.

force weave is a supposed to allow access to force powers through a removable source and while yes there is very little use for force weave in the beginning improved force weave starts to allow more flexibility with the ability allowing non force user to have access to one or two powers in addition a force user that routinely uses a single power may want to imbue that power in a object they have allowing themselves a power boost when using said power eg. force user with FR3 constantly uses heal imbues heal/harm into a object and now has a effective FR of 5 when using that power and can still use the power when they have committed there FD to other powers as the object give them +FR2 when using heal/harm

the imbuing process is still quite rough around the edges and i am trying to make a absolute costing for advantages and time, but i am heavily leaning to "follow the trees" when applying upgrades

thanks for the tip

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I would take a long look at the Imbue Force Power and the Teacher spec.  I'd also spend some time considering the consequences of allowing someone to add several force dice to, say, move.  

But before that, I would take the time to write a clear, complete description of Force Weave.  If you find you have to add a bunch of exceptions and provisions, it is too complicated.  If you find you are having to create a new dice mechanic, it doesn't fit the game.  I think Force Weave does this, by having a power endure longer than dice are committed to supporting it.  Normally, you commit dice, and there is some effect that exists while the dice are committed.  

Honestly, I think what you are really proposing is a form of crafting, where very powerful items can be created with little cost.  And the more of these items a character has, the lower the cost to make more.  If you have several imbued items, it is not painful to commit your force dice for a session to make another.  After a half dozen sessions, you might as well be crafting imbued items ever session for the rest of the campaign.  

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19 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I would take a long look at the Imbue Force Power and the Teacher spec.  I'd also spend some time considering the consequences of allowing someone to add several force dice to, say, move.  

But before that, I would take the time to write a clear, complete description of Force Weave.  If you find you have to add a bunch of exceptions and provisions, it is too complicated.  If you find you are having to create a new dice mechanic, it doesn't fit the game.  I think Force Weave does this, by having a power endure longer than dice are committed to supporting it.  Normally, you commit dice, and there is some effect that exists while the dice are committed.  

Honestly, I think what you are really proposing is a form of crafting, where very powerful items can be created with little cost.  And the more of these items a character has, the lower the cost to make more.  If you have several imbued items, it is not painful to commit your force dice for a session to make another.  After a half dozen sessions, you might as well be crafting imbued items ever session for the rest of the campaign.  

i assume you are talking about the "once the learner" and "now the master" traits of teacher but for imbue i cannot see the reason to draw my attention to it other then the name which i have tried to address

and yes it is a form of crafting, the thing is the woven powers will never be as good as the original power at least it isn't with one of the two process I'm using for this

as for the process themselves:

prototype 1

Before the session starts force user must announce that they are attempting to weave a force power into an item. that force user then commits force dice equal to the force power rating (the amount of force dice needed to use the power) of a power they know, for the entire session/s equal to the force power rating.

After the designated time has elapsed the force user then makes a daunting (dddd) astrogation check upgraded by the force power's rating (e.g. protect/unleash = dccc, heal = dddc) + B for the each of the players uncommitted force dice

A success means that the base power can be activated if the wearer meets the FR needed, while advantages may be used to purchase upgrades that the force user knows by spending advantages equal to 1/5 the EXP cost of those upgrades, while also following the upgrade tree

Each item may only be imbued with one power at any one time.

 

prototype 2

when crafting an item the force user may add their force dice to the roll, if he/she does upgrade the difficulty of the check by the force power rating

if successful the force user may spend Z equal to 1/5 the EXP cost of the to weave the power into the item e.g. farsight = Z, protect/unleash = ZZZZ. they may then spend any remaining Z on power upgrades they know, spending Z equal to 1/5 the EXP cost of the upgrade, while also following the upgrade tree

any who wear the item may use the power can be activated if the wearer meets the FR needed

Each item may only be imbued with one power at any one time.

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If it makes sense to you and your table, then go for it.  It is hard for me to judge, given that most of the explanation for what force weave is is not in the description.  From what I do understand, it seems pretty broken, as well as being a poor fit to the mechanics of the system.  

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9 hours ago, TheSapient said:

If it makes sense to you and your table, then go for it.  It is hard for me to judge, given that most of the explanation for what force weave is is not in the description.  From what I do understand, it seems pretty broken, as well as being a poor fit to the mechanics of the system.  

the thing is my GM is a rules lawer and to have any of my ideas added to the game i need FFG to confirm it as part of the game

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17 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

the thing is my GM is a rules lawer and to have any of my ideas added to the game i need FFG to confirm it as part of the game

I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I am certain that FFG will not take significant ideas from these forums and to put into their games.  Even if they did, it would be a LOOOONG time before they became ink on paper.  If you think you are able to write for a company like FFG, you will need to go through their hiring or contracting process.  There is at least one person in the SW forums who contributed text to at least Dawn of Rebellion.

This isn't just FFG.  You will find amazing homebrew materials for ton's of games available online.  I'm not aware of any publishers who grab and print that material.  Why would they?  They want to sell their work.  Homebrew is already available online for free.

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4 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but I am certain that FFG will not take significant ideas from these forums and to put into their games.  Even if they did, it would be a LOOOONG time before they became ink on paper.  If you think you are able to write for a company like FFG, you will need to go through their hiring or contracting process.  There is at least one person in the SW forums who contributed text to at least Dawn of Rebellion.

This isn't just FFG.  You will find amazing homebrew materials for ton's of games available online.  I'm not aware of any publishers who grab and print that material.  Why would they?  They want to sell their work.  Homebrew is already available online for free.

i know that it's a blue moon occurrence that it has to be A grade material to even be considered, in fact i have the rare privilege of having two things added to a single game from a completely different forum

it may be fools errand but it won't stop be from trying

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17 hours ago, TheSapient said:

This isn't just FFG.  You will find amazing homebrew materials for ton's of games available online.  I'm not aware of any publishers who grab and print that material.  Why would they?  They want to sell their work.  Homebrew is already available online for free.

Gaming companies pretty much don't, and for the most part the design teams of the bigger companies don't even read the forums.  I believe FFG even has this as a company policy, just to make sure to avert any potential lawsuits,  And yes, other RPG companies have had suits brought against them for "theft of ideas," and even though those suits were thrown out or dismissed, it's a major hassle so easier overall to just avoid it in the first place.  It's also why RPG companies don't take unsolicited ideas; those e-mails (and snail mails back in the day) just get discarded without ever being read.

For the couple of freelance RPG design gigs I did for Wizards of the Coast way back in the day (Star Wars Saga Edition), I couldn't use any of the homebrew material that I had written and published online, even though I was the original author of said material and would have obviously been 100% on board with it being included in officially published material.

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Also you had to have a good understanding of balance, you dont. You don't really listen when people try and tell you its imbalanced, so not sure what you'd do with playtesting probably ignore it. 

Not to be a ****, but you generally make waaaaaaaaay op stuff so its hard to take any of this seriously.

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@TheShard makes a good point.  How can you playtest ideas if they are not allowed in your games?  

I think the goal of these creations is going to be problematic.  A GM who is trying to fill in bits of lore or holes in the equipment list is going to be deeply concerned with balance and preserving the setting.  A min/maxing player who is looking for more "maxing" for his character concept is primarily concerned with getting away with as much as s/he can.  

The idea of crafting Force Power Enhancing/Granting items is far to broad for a talent.  It is a new sub-system for the game, and needs a fair amount of text to support it. The text, as it, doesn't even talk about what an "imbued item" is, much less how it is used, how often it can be used, who can use it, etc.  Why not GM a campaign with this new spec in it?  Does it work the way you thought it would?  Do people take the spec?  Does EVERYONE take the spec?  How does a character with 20 imbued items compare to, say, a Droid Bounty Hunter?  What happens when a character had a dozen items that each add 2-3 Force Dice to the Move power?  Can you find all these problems without actually playing with the spec in real games?

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