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Ausr

I love playing this game but... (A heroes rant)

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Hello guys!

Just wanted to rant a little bit and see if there's more people who feel kinda the same way around here.

I love Destiny, its a great fun game and the Star Wars Theme just makes it awesome BUT for a "light side" player as me it haven't been much fun lately.

A little background, in my city we're literally two fellows (including me) who play and know this game, and my friend is more into the villains. So balance in that aspect.

But after playing for sometime I can't shake the feeling that heroes characters are way overpriced for their abilities  (like Obi Wan Legacies) and doesn't have much on the offense side.

Yesterday we played a eHan/ePoe vs eBoba/ePhasma and we ended up 2-1 on the Villains winning.  The third and last match I had Poe and Han vs just Phasma, and in a couple of rounds the Phasma took out them both, because she has three natural damage sides (including the special, just like Boba) against Han for example that has only one natural damage side (the other one cost) and Poe only 2 damage sides. To be fair Poe was wounded, but after Poe was defeated Han was just floating in the water.

The same thing has happened for me with Obi Legacies, he's way priced for only one natural damage side, and if you want to make him eObi the characters to pair him with just reduces dramatically. 

I love this game, I really do but man it's tough to be a good guy handler lately, and worst some of my favorite characters are just really difficult to play with.

Anyway just needed to vent.

Thanks for reading guys!

Have a good one!

Edited by Ausr

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I think it’s a little hard to make objective assessments when there are only 2 of you playing, especially if you are both fixed into one faction. Having said that your opponent is playing a competitive playable character pairing while most would argue that New Han Solo is not a highly competitive character, so in playing the 2 decks you are starting from behind each game purely on power level.

As for power levels in general, and specifically for Obi Wan, he is very playable but only with one pairing and that is eMaz/eObi, other than that he's not good but with Maz he's great.

If you want to play hero with new ePoe, I would suggest paring with either New eRey or eAayla + profitable connection, you will have much more success vs. your opponent then I would expect.

Lastly, it’s a dice game and sometimes you roll hot, and sometimes you roll cold, but you need to play a lot of games before you can make an assessment on what's good and what's bad depending on your own personal play style.

1 last thing, try and find more opponents to play against (Facebook is great for finding playgroups), nothing kills the desire to play a game like playing the same person over again with 1 player winning a lot more than the other player.

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Thank you for your advice @Mace Windu!!

I'm in a city in Mx, so yeah there really isn't anymore players around, but we are working on that, making some videos in Youtube and we'll start doing some gatherings to show the game to more people. SW Destiny isn't sold here so that doesn't help much either.

Anyway thank you again for the kind words!

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Had far more people moaning about Poe than villians

Poe is a monster that doesn't need 3 damage sides because his special and focus make him hyper reliable 

Also his special can really **** with people, and Poe's Blaster is ridiculously good 

So idk, seems heroes have more crappy characters from the older sets but the legacy stuff seems quite legit or even incredible (except TPG Rey...bleh). I've also found that, overall, yellow heroes has much better mitigation than villains (specifically negotiate and easy pickings) apart from Loth Cat being a worse He Doesn't Like you. Blue hero mitigation is also strong between Caution, Force Misdirection, and Guard

It is weird that I'm seemingly the only hero guy around, though. Then again, I play in Empire City 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Take a look at what decks have won tournaments since the last nerf RRG. Its been heroes are us at the top tables until very recently.

 

Don't be too quick to assume your friend isn't just better at the game than you.  I know that sounds like a **** comment but I'm being serious.  There is a heap of decisions to be made in the game that when you're just starting out may nit even be apparent to you and if your buddy is making the "right" decision a couple of times a game more than you are, he will consistently win more than you.

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17 hours ago, Ausr said:

But after playing for sometime I can't shake the feeling that heroes characters are way overpriced for their abilities  (like Obi Wan Legacies) and doesn't have much on the offense side.

 

You're about 2 sets behind.

There was a time when the only heroes that could win were Poe/Maz.

Since the 2 player set and legacies came out, heroes have plenty of options to be successful.  Not necessarily expensive cards like Yoda either: Theres a 5 die Hero Vehicles deck running around which can use zero legendary cards -  Elite Rose, Elite Aayla, Ezra.  Throw in a bunch of cheap rares like Chance Cube, Modified HWK, Resistance Bomber, Y-Wing, T47 Airspeeder, get Rally Aid and Tech Team so you can play them out, and you're on your way...  Dunno if it's won any big tournaments but I know it's been there or thereabouts for a few.

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Heroes are indeed in a good place right now. You just need to do some research into the best pairings and deck construction. After that, your friend can come here and complain about heroes being OP.

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Big thing to remember about heroes is they are generally about shenanigans/defensive play rather than outright assault. Thats villain department.

Most of the heroes that are causing a storm are either action-ridiculous, special chaining, innate die mods, or are super difficult to kill.
If you try to play a hero deck with solid offense in mind, you are probably going to lose quick.

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aggro heroes are difficult to make, but I have personally greatly enjoyed "A New Hope" (legacies Han + Luke with the falcon and stolen intel...THEMATIC)

the combo of quickdraw, han and an ambush weapon creatures some nasty burst. Only issue is the x-8 nightsniper is ******* expensive but also necessary because there are apparently only 8 ambush guns total. You also have to flood the deck with resources because DEAR LORD are there pay sides (+luke's action in the late game)

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In any card or miniature game that is collectible and setup up for "building lists/decks etc.." the atmosphere of the game changes because generally speaking players will dissect the game to the bones, decipher what is "meta worthy" and fine tune the game into a competitive pigeon hold.  Once it all gets online, word about the different combos/power plays and super lists/decks gets around and before you know it you have the competitive meta seeping into your local game with your buddy.  Its all part of the magic of the internet.

In the case of Destiny its made worse because "cash = wins" as a random CCG type game.  So unless you putting dollars in a effort to muster up your collection either by buying singles or power buying boosters, your always going be a few cards short to building competitive decks and being able to compete with someone who has shelled out for that tournament championship build.

I can see just from his hero choices he has been on youtube watching the pro's talk about deck building and "what is good and what is not" and used that to construct his deck where it appears to me you are kind of not really doing that.  

You basically have one of two choices.  One is talk to your buddy and agree that "hey lets make fun/casual" decks and play the game less competitively, or start scouring the internet for the ultimate builds and try to construct them so you can be more competitive.

I do agree with the above sentiment though that many of these Collectable game, Destiny included, involve a great deal of skill acquired through experience, research and sometimes just a natural affinity for the game.  I personally had an experience like that when we got into Star Wars Armada.  My buddy would mercilessly pound me and I just felt "ok this game is unbalanced, Rebels suck, Empire is clearly better".  Only to discover that Rebels won worlds that year and my buddy won the Store Championship, Regionals and Nationals.  It turned out that he just took to the game like a Smurf to happiness and was kicking my *** because he was just that **** good.

My advice is remember that win or lose, the point of playing a game with a friend is to enjoy the experience, hang out and have a few laughs.  Destiny is a competitive one on one duel, a lot goes into why you might win or lose a match, from deck building, skill level to luck of the draw or the dice and many other potential incalculable reasons.  My personal experience is that if you love the game, you'll get better at it.  I played Armada for nearly a year before I won my first match, it took that long to learn the subtle nuances of the game, find my style.  Today I win games quite regularly and I have to say, my experience hasn't really changed all that much.  Playing was always fun win or lose, winning more than losing hasn't really done anything to improve my experience.. its still just fun to play.

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Even if you're playing "competitive", you really don't need to shell out for much beyond two copied of the TPG

I played tournies against people that regularly give away all their prizes because they already have all the nonlegendary cards. Poe + Aayla have been doing very well in this environment despite having no Shotis/Ancients/Force Speeds and coming into contact with fully kited out JangoSistrr and TarkinSister and Maul's saber ******* everywhere

You can easily play budget if you find the right deck archetype or swap out a few absurdly expensive cards with more reasonable alternatives. Quite a few starter pack upgrades, especially Poe's Blaster, are already top tier material

I've largely noticed that ranged damage decks are cheaper if you just avoid nightsniper (possibly holdout too) which I personally don't even think is that great. 

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Yeah thats the weird bit about this current wave

With the exception of Yoda, all the characters people want are rares. The other legendaries are either total garbage or niche uses.

Fully expect Aayla to get a pointbump by 1 or 2 though since they already proved they are willing to do that. Shes kinda ridiculous lol

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I'm honestly surprised more people aren't using her, but I don't think she's utterly absurd

She's a LOT more enjoyable than Rey, but Rey's die is just utterly mediocre/bad so that's not much comparison. Overall, I think Aayla is very strong but I don't think she stacks up to the likes of Seventh Sister even accounting for the 2 point difference

The fact that her Special needs to hit enemy dice to not just be focus makes her more fiddly than she initially seems. She only becomes crazier in the late game when two indirect just becomes 2 damage 

I'd use Luke instead if red had better mitigation, since Aayla adds guard and misdirection (most importantly for melee and specials)

Incidentally, guard and misdirection are absurd hero-only cards so that's one mark in heroes' favor ;)

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Yeah, guard is silly.
Its limited only by being required to be a blue die with melee, but thats not a hard thing to get on the field. Any random lightsaber, heirloom saber, crafted saber, or shoto saber can add them (though shoto would be the weaker of the four, being mostly 1 damage). It doesnt care if its a modifier or not, just showing damage.

The only thing i'd say bugs me about heroes is they dont have access to any blue ranged characters except via mixed damage. That combined with lack of a holocron type upgrade makes hero ability decks rather difficult to use (generally just force throw, and thats it. Which imo force throw is a little cheap and i honestly cant wait for it to be phased out)
Also the blue supports that do ranged damage are difficult to add in because of their cost and/or being ranged damage, while all blue heroes are mixed or melee. I'm not really sure who they'd add though that would be blue ranged, since all the "spell-power" force powers are considered Sith abilities...all of the good force users are lightsaber masters primarily.
(i mean, you could technically say General Leia would be blue....but shes so very much fixated in Red that it would never happen. Plus she'd probably be supporty anyway)

Edited by Vineheart01

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luke (unlikey hero) has two sides of ranged damage, which is enough imo to make him a ranged character despite having a 1 melee side

he even has extra synergy with force powers in that you can quote "use the force, luke!" incessantly until your opponent concedes, regardless of how the game is going

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Anyone whose followed the game since Worlds 2017, knows Heroes needed some time to shine. But to be honest, all deck types are viable. Heck, even a 6 die of eJarJar/eMaz/eEztra can win. But yes, certain cards are better than others (always will be).

The game is in the best place right now for meta!!

~D

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QUICK UPDATE.

Been playing Villains for the last games we've had, and have been crushing it. 5-0 kind. 

Thanks for all your feedback guys. I totally get that heroes are more strategy than just attack attack like the villains. My complain that maybe I didn't express correctly was that it kinda sucks not been able to use the characters I like (like Han) because their synergies or abilities are not so "competitive". 

Thank you for all your support! 

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Why do you have to field a competitive deck? Is winning more important than having the fun of playing your own deck with cards you want to play?

I play weekly at a store and find that I enjoy building and testing my own decks far more than I do copying a deck and playing it. Sure, sometimes you just go with the idea wasn't good, other times you can tweak and iterate through some ideas that produces a fairly strong deck.

Just had a look at Destiny Leia with Legacies Han, and they look like they could work well.

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That is a general problem not just heroes but mostly a hero problem. The most iconic characters (luke, han, leia, ackbar, chewy, or old obi) are either complete hot garbage or meh at best (original luke and obi are meh, rest are trash)

Newer Han is at least playable, not amazing by any means but hes functional and can pair with chewy now for that iconic set, though chewy still has issues unless hes with yoda.

Very few villain characters have that problem, and they generally have more of a pairing problem than the character itself is bad (no suitable buddy in points range).

As a result villains generally felt stronger, course the fact that blindly-charge attacking is also easier to do doesnt help the heroes either. Most random villain pairings can work if the dice cooperate, but very few random hero pairings can. Worth noting though that every time i make a deck my friends absolutely hate facing its a hero deck lol.

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The funny thing about the Hero decks vs the villain decks to me is that it seems Villain decks are all solid because the stuff you can put in them is all solid. The upgrades are super solid, the events are super solid and have ways around much of what heroes do, and most of the best cards that heroes have access to are neutral. For Hero to be good it requires very specific pairings with very good characters, and from what I have seen, it almost requires blue and Yellow as Second chance and Scruffy looking nerf herder with Force Illusions and maybe even Hand Crafted light bows are a must in basically every viable hero deck. 

Basically the reason Villains are so good is not just their characters can pair well and there is simply more of them that can pair well, but their upgrades are also very good just adding to the prior fact. Those upgrades basically mean you can run just about anything and throw the good upgrades in and as long as you can get the characters to live long enough with force illusion, he doesnt like you, and/or Best defense you will likely have a solid deck. Basically what I am saying is Villains are much less reliant on having the best of the best characters because their upgrades are so solid.

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

That is a general problem not just heroes but mostly a hero problem. The most iconic characters (luke, han, leia, ackbar, chewy, or old obi) are either complete hot garbage or meh at best (original luke and obi are meh, rest are trash)

Newer Han is at least playable, not amazing by any means but hes functional and can pair with chewy now for that iconic set, though chewy still has issues unless hes with yoda.

I would argue Han1 is still very good. Han1/Rey1 & Han1/Snap are legit decks. Just once Poe/Maz was a thing, most hero decks just couldn't compare. Especially when Vibroknife was first out making Han's shields useless. Now with Vibro tweaked, there might be some fun play. I'm not sure I'd still stick with only Rey1 or Snap, but I feel Han1 is still a contender. Esp with the cheap 2 cost Ambush Weapons out there.

~D

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