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TCArknight

Modern Weapons - Differences?

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I’m at a point in my Conversion where I’m looking at the Weapons.

In the original game, there are many different versions of pistols, rifles, heavy weapons, etc. For Pistols in the Genesys version, I’m looking at breaking things down to Light/Medium/Heavy versions of Revolvers and Automatics. Rifles I haven’t decided on the breakdown yet. 

Table X.X Firearms
Weapon Name Skill Damage Crit Range Encum Price Rarity Special
Pistols
"Zip Gun" / Holdout Ranged (Light) 3 6 Engaged - 50 1 Inferior, Inaccurate 1
Light Revolver Ranged (Light) 4 5 Short 1 75 2 Accurate 1
Medium Revolver Ranged (Light) 5 4 Short 1 100 3  
Heavy Revolver Ranged (Light) 6 3 Medium 1 300 3 Pierce 1

 

What would the difference between Revolvers and Automatics in Genesys terms be? What about something like the difference between a Bolt-Action rifle, something like an M-16/AK-47 and a lever-action Winchester .30-.30?

Thoughts and suggestions? :)

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The bolt action and lever action are probably going to be your basic weapon, perhaps have a small bore(medium range), medium bore and large bore (long range). A cheap option may have Limited Ammo 2-4, whilst the expensive ones with a bigger magazine don’t. 

Sniper Rifles will have high Damage, extreme range, Vicious, low Crit, Prepare, and probably a Limited Ammo of 2-4.

The M-16/AK-47 will have Damage similar to the medium bore but Autofire. They will likely be much more expensive and restricted. Perhaps you could have a clip fed option with Limited Ammo 2-3, then a Belt fed version that’s got Cumbersome and Prepare but not the Limited Ammo.

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If you were aiming at further differentiation beyond projectile diameter, you could take cartridge length, i.e. amount of propellant, and barrel length (identical cartridge from a, say Winchester, is faster than from a revolver) into consideration; both affecting muzzle velocity. 

My take on it is, that a smaller projectile - at same kinetic energy - has better penetration (Damage/Piercing) but less impact (Crit.). 

At the moment, I'm in progress of processing the GURPS Tech 5 Firearms List for a Victorian Conversion. 'd be glad to share, as soon as it's presentable, somewhen in April, probably.

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In Genesys mechanics, the only real difference between a bolt-action and an automatic rifle is that the latter has Autofire. The book also recommends +/- 1 damage or +/- 1 Crit if you want to model larger or smaller calibers. If you really want to be pedantic and model the intricacies of an intermediate assault rifle cartridge versus a full rifle cartridge, you can factor that into the Crit or damage assignment.

An M-16 fires the relatively puny 5.56x45mm intermediate cartridge. If you want to model that against an M1903 Springfield's beefier .30-06 full rifle cartridge, a point of damage might be appropriate, but I'd keep the Crit the same. A civilian AR-15 firing .223 Remington might justify the loss of that Crit point, by comparison. Giving you something like this:

AR-15, Damage 7, Crit 4, Long Range, Autofire

M16, Damage 7, Crit 3, Long Range, Autofire

M1903 Springfield, Damage 8, Crit 3, Long Range

Or using whatever rifles you want; the above are just real-world examples extrapolated from the rules in the book and the guidelines above. Adjust price and rarity as desired. Note that the above examples are being super-pedantic about cartridge fired, differentiating between the nearly-identical .223 Remington and 5.56mm NATO, but even with that level of pedantry the semi-automatic civilian AR-15 and select-fire military M-16 are both given Autofire, while the bolt-action Springfield is not. I would also not give Autofire to a semi-auto rifle like the M1 Garand, to continue the example, because the important thing to model here is volume of fire given in an abstract round of combat, not the technicalities of its real-life trigger groupings.

Again depending on how pedantic and crunchy you want to be, you could give the Springfield (and similar rifles) Limited Ammo 5 if you really want to make your players track that sort of thing. But all of this is being pretty nitpicky; you're honestly going to be just fine with the default modern weapons listed in the book, which they've done a pretty good job with.

Edited by BCGaius
silly weapon list didn't post

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12 minutes ago, BCGaius said:

Again depending on how pedantic and crunchy you want to be, you could give the Springfield (and similar rifles) Limited Ammo 5 if you really want to make your players track that sort of thing. But all of this is being pretty nitpicky[!]

For differentiating revolvers from semi-automatics, you could copy EotE mechanic for Heavy Blasters: hhh might empty the cylinder. 

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The only game differences I can see between a semi-automatic pistol and a revolver are ammo capacity and the ability to use a suppressor.

If I had a generic list of firearms for a near-historical game I would want these categories:

Holdout Pistol, Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol - the only differences being concealability and damage,

Varmint Rifle, Carbine, Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Antimateriel Rifle - the only differences being range and damage

Battle Rifle, Assault Rifle, Submachinegun - the only differences being autofire and weight; maybe add a light SMG for retractable stocks & Stechkins

Small Bore Shotgun, Large Bore Shotgun. - the only difference being damage

Machinegun - maybe differentiate between light and heavy

Edited by player966703

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I don't think these weapons fit very well with light/medium/heavy versions. I would go with weapons subtypes.

And there is a lot of online games and RPGs with a wide pool of options to use as inspiration.

But anyway, if you want somekind of references, try it:

Pistols (Ranged - Light):
Damage: 4 to 6. Critical: 4 to 3. Range: Short to Medium (pistols with a superior technology or high fire power). Posible qualities: Accurate.

Submachine Guns (Ranged - Light):
Damage: 4 to 6. Critical: 4 to 3. Range: Short to Medium (with a superior technology or high fire power). Possible qualities: Auto-fire.

Machine Guns (Gunnery):
Damage: 7 to 11. Critical: 4 to 3. Range: Long. Possible qualities: Auto-fire, Cumbersome, Pierce, Vicious, Breach 1-2.

Assault Rifles (Ranged - Heavy):
Damage: 6 to 9. Critical: 4 to 3. Range: Long. Possible qualities: Auto-fire, Accurate, Pierce.

Sniper Rifles (Ranged - Heavy):
Damage: 8 to 12. Critical: 2. Range: Extreme. Possible qualities: Accurate, Limited Ammo 2-4, Pierce, Prepare, Breach 1-2, Vicious.

Semi Automatic Sniper Rifles (Ranged - Heavy):
Damage: 7 to 9. Critical: 3. Range: Long to Extreme. Possible qualities: Auto-Fire, Accurate, Limited Ammo 2-4, Pierce, Vicious.

Shotguns (Ranged - Heavy):
Damage: 6 to 8. Critical: 3. Range: Short. Possible qualities: Blast, Knockdown, Vicious.

OBS.: About the revolvers vs. automatics, if you want, you can go with Prepare for revolvers, but it's up to you. I don't think miss this would break the game. If you think it's necessary for a player to have a talent to reload faster, skipping the Prepare maneuver, keep Prepare. Otherwise, let the revolvers almost like the automatics.

Edited by Bellyon

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20 hours ago, TCArknight said:

Table X.X Firearms

Weapon Name Skill Damage Crit Range Encum Price Rarity Special
Pistols
"Zip Gun" / Holdout Ranged (Light) 3 6 Engaged - 50 1 Inferior, Inaccurate 1
Light Revolver Ranged (Light) 4 5 Short 1 75 2 Accurate 1
Medium Revolver Ranged (Light) 5 4 Short 1 100 3  
Heavy Revolver Ranged (Light) 6 3 Medium 1 300 3 Pierce 1

What would the difference between Revolvers and Automatics in Genesys terms be? What about something like the difference between a Bolt-Action rifle, something like an M-16/AK-47 and a lever-action Winchester .30-.30?

Thoughts and suggestions? :)

Revolvers vs. Semi-Auto Handguns: Realworld differences would be reliability (hard to get a revolver to misfire), ammo capacity, and slightly more training required to be accurate quickly firing a revolver vs. a semi-auto. Unless Genesys introduced a new quality, there isn't such thing as "Reliable". Setback for a Revolver if you don't have the Ranged (Light) skill? You could give a Revolver Limited Ammo 6 or perhaps give it an increased chance of running out of ammo like the Heavy Blaster Pistol in Star Wars.

Rifles: Bolt-Actions and Lever Actions (plus Pump Actions?) could have Slow-firing perhaps? I'm not sure though, it's slower but not greatly slower. Hard to differentiate with semi-auto with the rules we have. Rifles will also vary greatly in damage in range, regardless of action type. Using your examples, a .30-.30 is going to have much better range and damage then the smaller M16/AK47 rounds.

17 hours ago, BCGaius said:

AR-15, Damage 7, Crit 4, Long Range, Autofire

M16, Damage 7, Crit 3, Long Range, Autofire

Couple problems here. First, there shouldn't be a Crit difference between the AR-15 and the M16. They shoot the same bullet and are essentially the same weapon except the M16 has full-automatic or 3-round burst capability, while the civilian AR-15 does not. Which leads me to Autofire. Remove it from the AR-15, since it is not a fully automatic weapon, unless you are going with any semi-auto weapon is capable of Autofire?

Edited by Sturn

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1 hour ago, Sturn said:

Couple problems here. First, there shouldn't be a Crit difference between the AR-15 and the M16. They shoot the same bullet and are essentially the same weapon except the M16 has full-automatic or 3-round burst capability, while the civilian AR-15 does not. Which leads me to Autofire. Remove it from the AR-15, since it is not a fully automatic weapon, unless you are going with any semi-auto weapon is capable of Autofire?

I literally wrote my reasoning for both of these points into the prior post, in addition to noting that it's pretty pedantic and thus should only be done if you really want that fiddly of a weapon chart and that making them all be more or less the same is fine.

In summary, in case my prior post was too long: .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO are not the same round, and Autofire is better used to model volume of fire, not neckbeard trigger groupings.

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I must admit I skimmed and just looked at the stats you listed and replied to it. Lots of AR-15's being called "full-auto" in the news lately triggered me. :) I apologize I didn't look at your full explanation, just the table.

I don't think we should be grouping semi-auto with full-auto in a modern game. If you do that, then almost every firearm carried by PC's would have Autofire. Even if it's a full-on combat-oriented game, except for the occasional sniper, battle rifle wielder (your M1 example), or shotgunner, nearly everyone will have a weapon with autofire. I suppose I could even hand wave that, but imagine the heavy machinegunner wondering why the guy with the semi-auto pistol has the same Autofire quality? Or, what if someone wants to pick up a machine pistol then realizes he already has Autofire with the basic semi-auto version he carries? I have no problem with your logic of most semi-auto's having Autofire, but if that's the case I would need to add an upgraded version of Autofire for submachinegun's and machineguns to still have a an automatic fire advantage. Shoot an AR15 on semi-auto then shoot an M249 (interchangeable ammo) then tell me which one puts out a larger volume of fire. There is a huge difference that should be reflected somehow even in a game.

You argued that differentiating the full-auto and semi-auto of the M16 vs AR15 would be too "crunchy", yet you then argue the .223 and 5.56mm bullets are different enough to give them different game stats? We're talking a slight difference in pressures when swapping the bullets between the two weapons. And actually, the pressures are nearly identical between an AR15 and M16 when using their designed-for ammo. Technically they are different bullets, but even in the realworld (not simplified narrative gameworld) they pass as the same bullet that many shooters don't even know the differences. If you're going to simplify light semi-auto weapons as having the same Autofire rating as fully automatic weapons, why aren't you simplifying these bullets which are nearly identical even in the realword?

ETA: I suppose from game to game it's going to depend on the GM and player's hobbies and experiences whether the differentiation of specific weapons is going to be important. Some groups wouldn't care if it was just Pistol (all sizes even revolvers), Submachinegun, and Rifle (AR's, hunting rifles, sniper weapons, all of them) while others would want the added details we have received with the Star Wars game. Some players are going to want to carry a Colt 1911 just like some want to carry a DL44, with corresponding in-game differences.

Edited by Sturn

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11 hours ago, Sturn said:

Couple problems [with the stats of an M-16 and AR-15]. First, there shouldn't be a Crit difference between the AR-15 and the M16. They shoot the same bullet and are essentially the same weapon except the M16 has full-automatic or 3-round burst capability, while the civilian AR-15 does not. Which leads me to Autofire. Remove it from the AR-15, since it is not a fully automatic weapon, unless you are going with any semi-auto weapon is capable of Autofire?

Here is the fundamental problem with statting every gun:

1. A designer wants to differentiate them, or else why bother?

2. A player will almost never choose to wield a clearly inferior weapon.

3. Anyone with an opinion about a firearm can elucidate an argument with the stats a designer ends up using.

My standard solution is to provide PCs with Talents that boost their effectiveness when using a certain weapon. A Walther PPK isn't a particularly fearsome weapon in anyone's hands but James Bond's.

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Thank you everyone!

I'm going to try to take a middle run of detail-vs-narration and go for an overall feel rather than a detailed crunch like the original game. This has definitely helped with that and I truly appreciate it. :)

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I agree with who think that creat every single weapon could be problematic. But it's possible to create sub types, generic. An AK-47 could be an specific type of rifle, with more fire power and less precision, being very rough.

If you know Star Wars, the weapons are generic, like "heavy pistol blaster", and in the description are a few models just to illustrate. And it goes for every weapon. This could be useful for you. Create few generic options and in the description you can give examples.

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Personally I am going fairly generic and you can name your weapon whatever you want. First edition Spycraft was a little more generic than second, so I am following that model. Plus new firearms keep coming out and I have no interest in being that exact. 

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:29 AM, player966703 said:

Here is the fundamental problem with statting every gun:

1. A designer wants to differentiate them, or else why bother?

2. A player will almost never choose to wield a clearly inferior weapon.

3. Anyone with an opinion about a firearm can elucidate an argument with the stats a designer ends up using.

My standard solution is to provide PCs with Talents that boost their effectiveness when using a certain weapon. A Walther PPK isn't a particularly fearsome weapon in anyone's hands but James Bond's.

Exactly this. This is why I think that, especially for a play group that actually enjoys a little crunch and unique customizations, that limited ammo and ammo capacity for different firearms should be applied. Doesn't take a whole lot of work to figure out this information with a quick Google search. This is why I have decided, contrary to what is suggested in the book, that reloading should not be considered a maneuver, but rather a full action. You want your character to be able to reload faster? Level up and take a skill that is specific to that weapon platform to be able to reload as a maneuver and eventually even an incidental with focus on that skill with that specific weapon, as all weapon platforms are fairly unique in design and feel in one way or another. This lends more consideration for players, (especially in a post-apocalypse setting where reliably functioning firearms can be rather scarce,) as to whether or not they invest early in mastering a decent weapon they find, and/or wait for the "big" gun they might find later, and even if they do, how viable is it to switch over to that weapon platform once they have already familiarized themselves with maybe the same Caliber weapon, but maybe a slightly smaller magazine capacity or only single fire capability? Maybe this hones their weapon focus and helps with ammo conservation, making them more accurate? How much is the extra damage or crit chance of the larger caliber weapon worth? Gives more incentive for fun little crunchy things like various weapon modifications and upgrades to what may be otherwise considered an inferior weapon? Makes finding loot like ammo caches much more rewarding and gives more potential for variation in adventure hooks that might even revolve around ammo availability.

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6 hours ago, Solo Skywalker said:

Exactly this. This is why I think that, especially for a play group that actually enjoys a little crunch and unique customizations, that limited ammo and ammo capacity for different firearms should be applied. Doesn't take a whole lot of work to figure out this information with a quick Google search. This is why I have decided, contrary to what is suggested in the book, that reloading should not be considered a maneuver, but rather a full action. You want your character to be able to reload faster? Level up and take a skill that is specific to that weapon platform to be able to reload as a maneuver and eventually even an incidental with focus on that skill with that specific weapon, as all weapon platforms are fairly unique in design and feel in one way or another. This lends more consideration for players, (especially in a post-apocalypse setting where reliably functioning firearms can be rather scarce,) as to whether or not they invest early in mastering a decent weapon they find, and/or wait for the "big" gun they might find later, and even if they do, how viable is it to switch over to that weapon platform once they have already familiarized themselves with maybe the same Caliber weapon, but maybe a slightly smaller magazine capacity or only single fire capability? Maybe this hones their weapon focus and helps with ammo conservation, making them more accurate? How much is the extra damage or crit chance of the larger caliber weapon worth? Gives more incentive for fun little crunchy things like various weapon modifications and upgrades to what may be otherwise considered an inferior weapon? Makes finding loot like ammo caches much more rewarding and gives more potential for variation in adventure hooks that might even revolve around ammo availability.

 

I'm not a fan of this approach for the same reason the devs aren't and thus why they didn't put an ammo capacity on every piece of weaponry. Rounds aren't a few seconds and one roll of the dice is not a single fire of a weapon. Constantly stopping the pace of combat to reload your weapon is not very cinematic.

Tracking Ammo
Combat in our game tends to be fast-paced and
narrative based, with rounds lasting an unspecified
amount of "game-world" time and combat
encounters usually wrapping up in a few total
rounds. That narrative-driven approach also
means that when your character attacks with a
ranged weapon, one attack could represent a single,
carefully lined up shot, or a few shots snapped
off with a pistol.

All this means that we really encourage you
and your GM not to worry too much about
ammunition. Carefully tallying how many bullets
your character has in the clip goes against
the Genesys game experience (and the longstanding
traditions of most action movies).
A better way to approach the issue of ammo is to
use any <Despair> generated on a combat check to make
the character’s ammo run out (something we
suggest on page 104). It’s more cinematically
exciting, and certainly feels like something that
would come from rolling a <Despair>!

The only exception is when a weapon has the
Limited Ammo quality. We reserve that quality
for weapons like rocket launchers, grenades, or
other weapons that very obviously can only fire
once before reloading!

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