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L5RBr

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Scorpion clan confirmed their strong position in the meta after cycle dominating the Paris Kotei finals and winning the tournament.

Crane and Lion seems to handle scorpions a little better, but the other clans are still struggling.

Dragon and Phoenix are probably in the worst situation right now, despite how strong the dragon/crab build is.

So, what can each clan do to improve their win rate at this moment? What's working for you?

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Against Scorpion, not much except getting in more reps or tailoring your deck for that matchup (which can make you weaker against other clans). I have played less than 5 games in the past month so I am eager for new cards to shake up the Scorpion dominance.

Edited by LifeGain

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Nice discussion.

For me and playing Phoenix, I have found Master of Gisei Toshi being of great help. Mostly, the games I get her I have good options. But the game I don´t, I likely lose.

There are other tools (Ready for battle, Shiba Yojimbo, and others) that are working well for me in that pairing, but Gisei Toshi is by far the most relevant, and I mulligan for her as soon as I see the red stronghold.

 

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I can't tell if that was sarcastic or not (the nice discussion part). As Crab go for Watch Commander, Iron Mine, and Kisada. Dragon has started running Finger of Jade and Censure but Scorpion can deal with both of these against Crab and Dragon. Also, as Crab try to destroy their hand. You may get spanked in the beginning but if you wear down their hand you should be in good position later. 

Edited by LifeGain

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Dragon with Crane splash has been very effective for me when facing scorpion.  Its heavily focused on attachments so it can generally overwhelm the scorpions attachment hate, and doesn't care too much about Forged Edict.

It's kind of my default deck to play when I try to be competitive and in a heavy Scorpion meta I would feel pretty confident with it.  However it is one of those decks that has to be built to combat Scorpion and leaves you vulnerable to other clans. Its not naturally as resilient as Crane or Lion.  Its also pretty boring to play, IMO.  Above Question and Finger of Jade can deny Scorpion from playing over half the cards in their deck.  Policy Debate and Kitsuki Investigate them to remove cards that matter......yawn.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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17 hours ago, thorrk said:

Not bid 1 on turn 1 like I did...

Yes trying to pressure honor in turn 1 against scorp seems not a good idea.

And make a defensive 1 turn can be good sometimes. First attack against SC is always hard with mirumotos, fate worst, for shame, etc.. and you probably will just have 1 or 2 chars in table, so generally you will just start an attack to don't get any fate on rings, trigger their repeatable action provinces and will probably loose or, in the best scenario you will have to compromise too much to force a break, and probably will loose a province and honor in a unopposed conflict in the same turn too. So I think sometimes making a economic first turn and give scorpion the initiative, cause they will have to compromise some fate/cards to attack, and maybe you could get the favor and in second turn you will be in a more balanced situation cause in turn 1 no doubt scorpion will be in a better position in most cases.

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My own interpretation of the Paris results is that there are Crane and Lion decks that beat Scorpion, but they lose against the other clans. And the ones that qualified go unlucky in matchmaking and got taken out before facing the Scorpion decks, which on turn wrecked the other clans.

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1 hour ago, L5RBr said:

Yes trying to pressure honor in turn 1 against scorp seems not a good idea.

And make a defensive 1 turn can be good sometimes. First attack against SC is always hard with mirumotos, fate worst, for shame, etc.. and you probably will just have 1 or 2 chars in table, so generally you will just start an attack to don't get any fate on rings, trigger their repeatable action provinces and will probably loose or, in the best scenario you will have to compromise too much to force a break, and probably will loose a province and honor in a unopposed conflict in the same turn too. So I think sometimes making a economic first turn and give scorpion the initiative, cause they will have to compromise some fate/cards to attack, and maybe you could get the favor and in second turn you will be in a more balanced situation cause in turn 1 no doubt scorpion will be in a better position in most cases.

This is super insightful. I hadn't thought about 1st turns like that before, and mostly players in my area play aggressively from the start. This is making me think I want to play a more passive turn 1 in a lot of matchups. Thanks!

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Scorpion has very impactful provinces. Making probing attacks against Secret Cache is a win for them usually, for example. Thus I think against Scorpion you may need to only attack when you have an overwhelming advantage that can push through a bow and FWTD.

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Quote

Yes trying to pressure honor in turn 1 against scorp seems not a good idea.

 It's funny because I knew that, but I did otherwise for 3 reasons:

-One of the reason to bid 5 vs scorpion is to prevent them form using their sh on turn 1and here he had manipulator so he was going to do it anyways.

-I had 2 kaiu and 1 storehouse so I was going to draw only 2 less cards than him which is not that many  so maybe I could get away with it.

-Bidding low from turn 1 vs scorpion worked out for me in the past but obviously against much less experienced players. (my experience in this MU is pretty limited)

Obviously it didn't work out at all but the real blow out was somewhere else ...

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I’ve noted a couple of people mention attachments to help combat Scorpion. I recently took a hammering as Crab against Scorpion when my opponent Called in Favours on my Watch Commander and froze me out of the game. In light of that I am wary of playing any attachments that can be taken off me and used against me with punishing effects.

i have thought about Above Question and Finger of Jade, but they only protect the character not the attachment itself....

Edited by Caldera
Wrong card name-checked

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I have yet to find a workable strategy against Scorpion. It's my worst match up. That said, I think the biggest eventual counter against Scorpion will be taxing their fate. There isn't much that directly hits an opponent's fate aside from Goblin Sneak, although I may be forgetting something.

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4 hours ago, Caldera said:

I’ve noted a couple of people mention attachments to help combat Scorpion. I recently took a hammering as Crab against Scorpion when my opponent Forge-Edicted my Watch Commander and froze me out of the game. In light of that I am wary of playing any attachments that can be taken off me and used against me with punishing effects.

i have thought about Above Question and Finger of Jade, but they only protect the character not the attachment itself....

I agree with you. Calling Favors win games. Talisma, jade finger, reprieve, watch commander and many others great attachments. Besides that scorpion usually run 2 calling and 2 let go so I think trying to overwhelm SC attachment hate costs too much. Maybe investing in more low cost 0 glory conflict characters to break the "pass first gain fate" dropbears strategy works better as the anti-character cards have a greater cost (assassination, fate worse and mirumotos).

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I think the key to having success vs Scorpion is recognizing what axis you plan on attacking them on and being decisive on mulliganing to get to your cards.  You can't draw mediocre and hope to get there.

As far as attachment overwhelm, its important to sequence your attachements to get Calling in Favors out of the mix.  Let Go is just a slight nuisance.  Calling in Favors is the one that messes you up.  You also have to pick the right collection of attachments to include if you want to overwhelm them.  If you're just running a bunch of great stuff then anything they steal is going to mess you up.

In the Dragon/Crane build and various other builds with Crane, for Above Question, the ultimate goal is ending up with a character that is effectively immune to events, as that is what makes up the bulk of the cards in Scorpion conflict decks.   This is critical so you need to set up situations to where you can protect the attachment.  Let Go of your own, or in the case of Crab use Kurada District to steal it back.  It's not fate or card efficient but if you end up with critical character that cannot be targeted with events, you should be in a good position to win.

If you're playing Crab/Unicorn and just throwing out quality attachment after quality attachement, without a way to protect your attachments, you're just asking to have them stolen.

You cannot win the attachment war by simply including and playing more attachments.

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11 hours ago, LifeGain said:

I think Crane is one of Scorpion's hardest matches. Harrier and Steward do a lot of work. Plus, they have a good amount of honor effects.

Stewie is really amazing against Scorpions (Harrier less so tho) but the real key in the match up is our Mil low drop : with little to no work they threaten the break, forcing the scorpion to spend a card to save his province since most of his Dynasty Character don't have good MIL stats. Usually they just spend a lot more resources than the crane player or give up the break. Cautious Scout is super strong in that regard.

That's how I go about the match up and it served me well so far.

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I really don't like scorpion, but I've started playing them as a second deck, just to learn their tricks. To beat the scorpion, you must think like a scorpion :) Couple games as them has helped.

Censures, finger of jade, cloud the mind, policy debates, and characters that let you look at their hand, discard from their hand - they really hate that. Keep bidding 5 till they switch to dishonor. 

 

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I found myself pounding earth ring hard against them and going with a strategy that punishes their hand. I am trying 2x Spies at court and 3x Policy Debate right now and it is working well. Earth ring+spies at court is nuts. If you get Hotaru also it is bonkers. (I am playing as Crane)

Edited by LifeGain

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