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TylerTT

Legion is not a “tournament” minitures game and I could not be more pleased with that.

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3 hours ago, AintNoPoser said:

Can we use the term "seasonal" or "monthly" release?

At some point I think this thread started interchanging the Ground Assault Kits' seasonal release and expansion "wave" releases. All the Asmodee presentation talked about was OP and Ground Assault kits, and their being seasonal instead of quarterly. Same frequency but not bound to March 31/June 30/September 31/December 31. 

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15 hours ago, Derrault said:

Blech, I’ll just keep using wave to refer to grouped releases. 

The problem is that it isn't clear to everyone what that really means, because it isn't being centrally defined. The term "wave" is a term traditionally used to clarify case contents of goods that are distributed in mixed cases and those wave definitions always came from the manufacturer or distributor. FFG has used it to describe sets of releases but it only holds up because they are centralizing the information.

If I talk about X-Wing Wave 10, everyone knows it refers to a very specific set of expansions (and in a larger sense, usually the state of the meta after those expansions were released until Wave 11 was released). This works even when the timing gets weird because the definitions are centrally dictated. The T-70 X-Wing and the Ghost released about eight weeks from one another, but they are all part of Wave 8. Why? Because FFG tells us what Wave 8 is. Conversely, the Kimogila and the TIE Silencer were released on the same day, but are part of different waves, again, because FFG says so. They are the central source for these arbitrary decisions, and without that the term loses meaning.

With Legion, because FFG isn't defining those numbers, everyone is using them differently. Some people are saying that the expansions at release are Wave 1, while others are saying that they don't count and the next expansions to be released should be Wave 1. Some people think that Veers and the Snowtroopers are one wave and Leia and the Fleet Troopers will be the next, while others want to group those four expansions together as a single wave because they are parallel, even if they will be released at different times. When someone says they are excited about Legion Wave 2, I genuinely don't know which releases they are even talking about. 

This will only get worse given the pace of releases for this game. If FFG is really aiming for an aggressive schedule of 10+ small releases per year, how will wave numbers even have relevance? By the end of 2019, we'll be at Wave 17 based on the way some people want to count, Wave 8 based on others, and none of it will be meaningful to anyone. Because the smaller releases shouldn't so radically shift the meta in this game, why will I ever care to look back at "Wave 5" in isolation?

It just makes sense to call Veers and the Snowtroopers "April releases" (or perhaps, May...).

Edited by Dr Lucky

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45 minutes ago, Big Easy said:

At some point I think this thread started interchanging the Ground Assault Kits' seasonal release and expansion "wave" releases. All the Asmodee presentation talked about was OP and Ground Assault kits, and their being seasonal instead of quarterly. Same frequency but not bound to March 31/June 30/September 31/December 31. 

They did state that Legion Releases (not referring to OP) would be monthly.

thats where the core confusion is.

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

Ug if they really intend monthly releases I am so out. No way I can afford new toys every month nor the time to paint them.

Like most miniatures games, I'm not sure it will be necessary to buy everything to stay competitive (unlike X-Wing, for example). It definitely won't be necessary to buy out-of-faction expansions if you decide to focus on only one faction. 

Also, the monthly releases are small and don't include all factions. What we know so far is that the first expansion release is Veers and the Snowtroopers; about a month later is Leia and the Fleet Troopers; and the third monthly release seems to be the terrain packs. All told, it doesn't seem to be an overwhelming schedule, especially if you only play one faction. 

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On 3/14/2018 at 2:35 PM, Derrault said:

@Dr Lucky I always viewed it as:

Wave 1: expansions releases with core set

Wave 2: Veers, Leia, Snowtroopers, Fleet troopers.

 

3 hours ago, Weatsop said:

Actually when people mentioned waves, I assumed that Veers, Leia etc was still part of wave 1.

/shrug

 This kind of proves my point...

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4 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Ug if they really intend monthly releases I am so out. No way I can afford new toys every month nor the time to paint them.

I fully intend to buy the bare minimum for a tournament as quick as I can afford, and stick to that as long as I can stand. One exception being I'll cheerfully get a different / extra commander.

Otherwise, get stuff if you like it, and just enjoy shooting at the rest.

:)

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10 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Ug if they really intend monthly releases I am so out. No way I can afford new toys every month nor the time to paint them.

They used the monthly release for LCG and that is very nice, only dropping $15 or $30 (for a big box expansion) once a month instead of the X-Wing/Armada wave release, especially when a wave had up to 5 ships, some you may want multiples. $25-50 a month is probably better than $75-150 every 3 months. Do they have enough items and more importantly enough man power to produce product for monthly releases?

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10 hours ago, Dr Lucky said:

All told, it doesn't seem to be an overwhelming schedule, especially if you only play one faction. 

That is true but ffg has a bad track record for making op BS to later nerf so power gamers ****** it all up as quick as possible. 

I did overlook terrain, that could very well be half the year right there. That wouldn’t be so bad I guess. I really have little confidence they can stick to a monthly schedule anyway, **** happens in companies and production and it’s very truly a matter of when not if they start missing deadlines. I do think a bimonthly schedule would be a more achieveable goal for them.

edit:wow s n a t c h is a trigger word for the filter, hilarious.

Edited by LordFajubi

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20 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Ug if they really intend monthly releases I am so out. No way I can afford new toys every month nor the time to paint them.

Well so far it looks like only one side per month? So if your only playing a single faction then it’s everyother month.

I do get what you mean though. It’s quite difficult to enjoy a game casually if everyone you play with is hardcore and playing the flavor of the month. That’s what ultimately drove me away from warmachine. I just never felt any  competence  when I could only play once or twice a month. 

I don’t think this game will be as fast moving or as incredibly complex as warmachine given they only have two factions and are categorically different in their levels of complexity. 

Edited by TylerTT

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19 hours ago, Cusm said:

They used the monthly release for LCG and that is very nice, only dropping $15 or $30 (for a big box expansion) once a month instead of the X-Wing/Armada wave release, especially when a wave had up to 5 ships, some you may want multiples. $25-50 a month is probably better than $75-150 every 3 months. Do they have enough items and more importantly enough man power to produce product for monthly releases?

$25-50 a month is the exact same cost spread as $75-150 every three months. It sounds like your issue with the three month gap is a budgeting one and that can easily be fixed on your end.

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15 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Well so far it looks like only one side per month? So if your only playing a single faction then it’s everyother month.

I do get what you mean though. It’s quite difficult to enjoy a game casually if everyone you play with is hardcore and playing the flavor of the month. That’s what ultimately drove me away from warmachine. I just never felt any  competence  when I could only play once or twice a month. 

I don’t think this game will be as fast moving or as incredibly complex as warmachine given they only have two factions and are categorically different in their levels of complexity. 

Armada is a lot slower with releases and has fewer overall. But there's a ton of flexibility in the card upgrades and squadrons, so the meta isn't as all over the map like X wing. Also, tactics have a much bigger role in Armada (definitely not saying X wing doesn't require some), where it's more about devising a plan and executing than X wing's pure spatial awareness and reading of your opponent. 

I think Legion will sit between those two playstyles, and as a result won't be completely dominated by the cutting edge meta unless FFG really mess with the power of the game units and mechanics.

Edited by Big Easy

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As to the original topic of this post the dev said the match times are about 2:00-2:30 hours, not 90 min, that’s not a good sign for tournament play.  with x-wing, IA, and Destiny you can easily fit 3-6 rounds in an afternoon. They say to schedule 4 rounds of legion as an entire day.

personally I’m happy they are not making this a fast game that would compeat with the great short round games we already have.

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On 3/18/2018 at 1:21 AM, Big Easy said:

I think Legion will sit between those two playstyles, and as a result won't be completely dominated by the cutting edge meta unless FFG really mess with the power of the game units and mechanics.

For sure, mainly because we know the meta for Legion will consist of at least 3 trooper and one commander selection, you also have to account for the idea that neither player can have 100% control over the missions, setup zone or conditions.

In fact I think, it almost creates a meta that isn't going to be defined as clearly as it is in Armada and X-Wing, rather I think we may find players gravitate towards a play style based list for 750 points and then with the 50 point float make little adjustments to suit how they see their meta being played out.

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On 3/17/2018 at 3:56 PM, TylerTT said:

As to the original topic of this post the dev said the match times are about 2:00-2:30 hours, not 90 min, that’s not a good sign for tournament play.  with x-wing, IA, and Destiny you can easily fit 3-6 rounds in an afternoon. They say to schedule 4 rounds of legion as an entire day.

personally I’m happy they are not making this a fast game that would compeat with the great short round games we already have.

Most wargaming tournaments I've been a part of have match lengths of 2-3 hours. This game is pretty par for the course. Idk why having a match length that falls on the shorter end of that spectrum would be a bad sign for tournament play.

If you're not looking to play in tournaments or can't see yourself playing for an entire day - that's fine. But don't state Legion isn't tournament friendly just because it lasts longer than a game of Destiny lol.

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Seconded on the game length of Legion being about the standard of miniature wargame tournament length. Bolt Action tournaments I've seen and been a part of have 2 hour long rounds, take all day and typically only have 3-4 games a day, with a break for lunch and short gaps in between each round.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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I have heard it said that one reason is much more popular than say armada is the length of game involved. Personally I think they just appeal to different types of gamers.  Xwing is a fast tactical game where lots of things happen fast. Armada is a slower strategic game where things happen more slowly but you tend to think a bit more because if you **** something up early you’re not coming back from it. Armada, like legion also has way more moving parts. 

‘I agree with the others. War games are generally 2-2.5 hours. It’s just that the usual ffg game crew aren’t used to that being the normal amount of time. Ultimately the answer to whether the game is successful competitively (or at all) will be determined by whether they managed to catch the wargaming crew who will be perfectly happy to invest the time into each game as well as the far longer amount of hours needed for the hobby side. 

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5 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

I have heard it said that one reason is much more popular than say armada is the length of game involved. Personally I think they just appeal to different types of gamers.  Xwing is a fast tactical game where lots of things happen fast. Armada is a slower strategic game where things happen more slowly but you tend to think a bit more because if you **** something up early you’re not coming back from it. Armada, like legion also has way more moving parts. 

‘I agree with the others. War games are generally 2-2.5 hours. It’s just that the usual ffg game crew aren’t used to that being the normal amount of time. Ultimately the answer to whether the game is successful competitively (or at all) will be determined by whether they managed to catch the wargaming crew who will be perfectly happy to invest the time into each game as well as the far longer amount of hours needed for the hobby side. 

Another thing about Armada is that your movements are relatively restricted (as are your opponents), which leads to a bit of overanalysis of potential options. In Legion, troopers are the backbone of any list and their movement is extremely fluid and dynamic, which should allow you to zoom in better and make quicker decisions. I haven't tested this yet, but as an Armada player I expect it to be the case.

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13 hours ago, Big Easy said:

Another thing about Armada is that your movements are relatively restricted (as are your opponents), which leads to a bit of overanalysis of potential options. In Legion, troopers are the backbone of any list and their movement is extremely fluid and dynamic, which should allow you to zoom in better and make quicker decisions. I haven't tested this yet, but as an Armada player I expect it to be the case.

Is that extra flexibility not countered by the impact of supression making activation order even more important. Yeah you can move anywhere... but can you do it and still shoot! Just as tough I suspect 

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34 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

Is that extra flexibility not countered by the impact of supression making activation order even more important. Yeah you can move anywhere... but can you do it and still shoot! Just as tough I suspect 

Hardly just as tough. In Armada which arc of your ship you are firing out of changes how many attack dice you get to roll, and each arc has a different amount of shields. The difference between destroying a ship and simply damaging, or losing your own ship can be how much you turned while you maneuvered. Most of the units in Legion do not care to nearly that extent. But yes, Suppression does add an additional consideration to activation order and the capabilities of your units.

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