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Kanawolf

Premeasuring

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33 minutes ago, VAYASAN said:

Ok I havnt played the game or read many rules yet but regards this, cant you just-

As you can use the range ruler when you want,cant you just (knowing the distances) use the range ruler to work out where your second move would get you?

 

Not saying I would do it(I wont).

 

 

You should! That’s the perfectly legal and best way to do it, one of the points behind being able to pre-measure.

The downside is that your going to be less accurate since you need to eyeball it, so you may end up being out by half an inch or so and thus out of luck for your cover or something.

Edited by Thoras

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16 hours ago, mini78 said:

"Players can measure with the range ruler at any time. Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation."

I get where everyone is coming from and not saying I disagree, but the rule is poorly worded.

As written, I can use the range ruler whenever I want. I cannot place the movement tools against a unit's leader unless that unit is activating.

It is ambiguous as to whether or not I can hold the movement tool over the table at other times. A little grammar would fix that right up.

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13 minutes ago, Basylle said:

I get where everyone is coming from and not saying I disagree, but the rule is poorly worded.

As written, I can use the range ruler whenever I want. I cannot place the movement tools against a unit's leader unless that unit is activating.

It is ambiguous as to whether or not I can hold the movement tool over the table at other times. A little grammar would fix that right up.

Agreed.  The rules don't really have anything to say on whether or not you can pre-measure with the movement tool during a specific unit's activation.  My assumption is that you will be able to.  I'm actually surprised by how emphatically some people think it would be poor sportsmanship.

Can I pre-measure with the range ruler?  Yes.  I can do so at any time.

Can I pre-measure with the movement tool?  I don't know.  The rules have nothing to say on the matter.  The rules only tell me that I can only place the movement tool against a model's base during that unit's activation.

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1 minute ago, KrisWall said:

Agreed.  The rules don't really have anything to say on whether or not you can pre-measure with the movement tool during a specific unit's activation.  My assumption is that you will be able to.  I'm actually surprised by how emphatically some people think it would be poor sportsmanship.

Can I pre-measure with the range ruler?  Yes.  I can do so at any time.

Can I pre-measure with the movement tool?  I don't know.  The rules have nothing to say on the matter.  The rules only tell me that I can only place the movement tool against a model's base during that unit's activation.

If you can pre-measure with the range ruler at anytime how much do you need the movement tools as you just pre check the movement tool to range ruler.

This was an issue when I was playing ST: Attack Wing and they ended changed it in the D&D version to only let you measure with the range ruler during your turn.

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Players can measure with the range ruler at any time.

Easy, makes sense

Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation

This is what I hope it means

You can not use your movement tool at all unless you are activating that unit and are measuring from the unit leader.

I hope they mean to explicity take out pre measure with movement tools because it seems so cheap. Especially when you daisy chain 3 turns ahead with your movements.

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27 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

Players can measure with the range ruler at any time.

Easy, makes sense

Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation

This is what I hope it means

You can not use your movement tool at all unless you are activating that unit and are measuring from the unit leader.

I hope they mean to explicity take out pre measure with movement tools because it seems so cheap. Especially when you daisy chain 3 turns ahead with your movements.

Why does it seem cheap?  Genuinely asking.  Planning a multi turn move, plus or minus a few inches, seems like a fairly reasonable strategy.  I definitely wouldn't want to premeasure several turns ahead as it would make it super obvious to my opponent what I was thinking.

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1 hour ago, KrisWall said:

Why does it seem cheap?  Genuinely asking.  Planning a multi turn move, plus or minus a few inches, seems like a fairly reasonable strategy.  I definitely wouldn't want to premeasure several turns ahead as it would make it super obvious to my opponent what I was thinking.

I guess I was raised on games where you had to do the work with your eyes and doing it with the movement tool just seems to feel wrong. Also whether you'd pre measure several turns ahead or not just becomes a game of bluff and one step away from hustling the opponent. Oh you thought I was a n00b cos I pre-measured all my guys to a certain piece of cover/objectives . When in fact I just bluffed you into falling for my trap. I don't feel like losing to that tactic would be a good experience, so I worry about WAAC players  playing against newer players. 

 

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1 hour ago, Sk3tch said:

I guess I was raised on games where you had to do the work with your eyes and doing it with the movement tool just seems to feel wrong. Also whether you'd pre measure several turns ahead or not just becomes a game of bluff and one step away from hustling the opponent. Oh you thought I was a n00b cos I pre-measured all my guys to a certain piece of cover/objectives . When in fact I just bluffed you into falling for my trap. I don't feel like losing to that tactic would be a good experience, so I worry about WAAC players  playing against newer players. 

 

Gotcha.  Thanks for taking the question seriously.  It sounds like your dislike of pre-measuring in this sort of game is based on some poor experiences in the past.  I, on the other hand, have had no poor experiences with pre-measuring.  I think it's perfectly reasonable (and the sign of a good player) to plan out your moves several turns ahead of time.  It's less good to do it in a way that clues your opponent in to what you're thinking.  With Legion, I think the common technique will be to simply learn what a double speed 2 move looks like on a range stick and then using that to pre-measure at any time.  That's perfectly within the rules and rewards experienced players who take the time to learn how Range 1 looks compared to Speed 1, 2 or 3.

The whole pre-measure as a bluff thing is interesting, but I don't see it working with every player or really ever with the same player twice.

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@KrisWall In games with movement and range both measured purely in terms of inches with no movement markers, pre-measuring is fairly quick, just a sweep with a measuring tape/stick and done. The measuring tools though make things slightly more complicated, since you can't use your last inch of movement to duck around the corner, the corner has to be within half of your move distance for your Squad Leader to make it with only a single move. So it becomes, "Okay, where to I end up with this much of an angle on the tool, now this much" etc etc. After playing the game a bit people will learn to eyeball the movement tools, I know I;ve gotten fairly good at eyeballing 12" since that is the charge range in Bolt Action which doesn't allow any premeasuring.  

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@KrisWall of course, I'll always try to take valid points and questions seriously. 

 Interesting though I have had no bad experience with premeasuring. Just strikes me as something that is open to abuse and I don't like it. Either way I feel the bottom line is, it needs clarifying. 

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11 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

@KrisWall of course, I'll always try to take valid points and questions seriously. 

 Interesting though I have had no bad experience with premeasuring. Just strikes me as something that is open to abuse and I don't like it. Either way I feel the bottom line is, it needs clarifying. 

Yeah, I definitely think it needs to be clarified.  Knowing FFG and their other games, I think it will be clarified as soon as competitive play starts up and the FAQ questions start rolling in.  I also think this will end up being one of those things that seems open to abuse, but is rarely abused in a real game situation.  99% of the games I play go great.  In the rare instance where rules interactions are being abused, the situation can almost always be resolved by replacing the opponent and not the rule set :).

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Premeasuring several moves ahead seems silly, as the game state is likely to change very much past your next turn (especially when you can't even guarantee when each unit will activate). My hope would be that my opponents wouldn't waste too much time measuring every option. This is not a game of committing to precise movements--your units have a max range and you're just measuring from a single mini. If you are hoping to move to get within range to shoot, and find out you can't via a premeasure, I'm honestly fine with that. Saying that you can't premeasure movement is as arbitrary as deciding you can't premeasure range. Let's just keep the game moving! And yes, a grammar clarification would be most welcome to confirm this.

Edited by Big Easy

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26 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Yeah, I definitely think it needs to be clarified.  Knowing FFG and their other games, I think it will be clarified as soon as competitive play starts up and the FAQ questions start rolling in.  I also think this will end up being one of those things that seems open to abuse, but is rarely abused in a real game situation.  99% of the games I play go great.  In the rare instance where rules interactions are being abused, the situation can almost always be resolved by replacing the opponent and not the rule set :).

To be honest I think Alex Davey will answer this one sooner than later! Just as he did with the Impact Grenade debate......

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I dont se a problem if you activate a unit go ahead and put that movement tool down on the board move it all around se where you can go. If you don't like the options pick up the tool and do something else. Shoot or whatever. Just don't take for ever to decide. I looked in the RR and I don't see anywhere that says once you put the tool down that you are committed to move. So I think its reasonable to premeasure during that units activation and then decide you want to shoot and dodge instead. If the person you are playing against disagrees then roll that die and see who wins the dispute. then cary on.

 

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Agree @Dustin125 most wargames I have played allow you to measure your move and if you don't like it you can decide to do something else. Having a x-wing style once you put that barrel roll template down you MUST barrel roll is not conducive to a good wargame that lets you freely measure shooting ranges anytime but is constrictive about movement. 

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You can kind of pre-measure in Armada, but I am okay with pre-measuring because it eliminates those guys who try to abuse the no movement tool measuring. I would find it irritating if my opponent placed a thumb on the range ruler while placing the same range ruler over the movement tool to see where his thumb is placed. Of course I am good at judging distances most of the time so don't care either way.

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8 hours ago, Dustin125 said:

I dont se a problem if you activate a unit go ahead and put that movement tool down on the board move it all around se where you can go. If you don't like the options pick up the tool and do something else. Shoot or whatever. Just don't take for ever to decide. I looked in the RR and I don't see anywhere that says once you put the tool down that you are committed to move. So I think its reasonable to premeasure during that units activation and then decide you want to shoot and dodge instead. If the person you are playing against disagrees then roll that die and see who wins the dispute. then cary on.

 

The OP strongly implied that the opponent measured (with the mvt tool) from the unit leader’s base, guessed where the far side of the base would end up, and then measured from that new spot...  BEFORE ever committing to a single action.  That is #GameyAsDuck

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23 hours ago, Basylle said:

I get where everyone is coming from and not saying I disagree, but the rule is poorly worded.

As written, I can use the range ruler whenever I want. I cannot place the movement tools against a unit's leader unless that unit is activating.

It is ambiguous as to whether or not I can hold the movement tool over the table at other times. A little grammar would fix that right up.

What's confusing about this? The rule says you can use the movement tool during a units activation and it must be touching the base. 

It does not specify another timing to measure with the movement tool, therefore you cannot premeasure with the movement tool.

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1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

What's confusing about this? The rule says you can use the movement tool during a units activation and it must be touching the base. 

It does not specify another timing to measure with the movement tool, therefore you cannot premeasure with the movement tool.

That is a very reasonable way to interpret what was written and probably what was intended. But it is not actually what was written as it doesn't say it is the only time the movement tool can be used. It says it is the only time the movement tool can be used against a unit leader's base. Subtle difference, but it leaves it open to interpretation and can easily be cleared up.

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Just now, Basylle said:

That is a very reasonable way to interpret what was written and probably what was intended. But it is not actually what was written as it doesn't say it is the only time the movement tool can be used. It says it is the only time the movement tool can be used against a unit leader's base. Subtle difference, but it leaves it open to interpretation and can easily be cleared up.

I disagree. The RRG does not specify another time you can use the movement tool therefore there is no other timing. Where as the range ruler has a specific timing - any time. 

They don't have to say this is the only time you can use it BECAUSE it is the only time the movement tool is said to have a timing. 

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If we are going to start saying we can do things because the RRG doesn't say I can't do them, then I guess I can pick up your minis and throw them across the store. The mini is not on the table, therefore you can't measure from it anymore, effectively removing it from the game. 

It's an escalation for sure, but technically I can do that right? Can anyone find where it says in the rules that I'm not allowed to throw my opponents minis?

 

 

FFG rights rules in a positive sense, which means the rules tell you what you are allowed to do. If they wrote them in a negative sense, they would tell you what you're not allowed to do. Of course they can mix them, but the vast majority says "You are allowed to do this at this time" not "You cannot do this during any of theses times". And it appears a lot of people are looking for the second one to prove movement tool measurement only occurs during the units activation.

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