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Serk

Rule question: COTR and Dark Charm

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Posted (edited)

 I expect it to not work but would it be possible to use Dark Charm for movement, interrupt the movement to maintain the monster status for the hero (I think you can interrupt movement voluntarily while  you can not do that with an attack action) and use call of the raven on it? Both cards are used during start of the turn, but would a charm hero even be a valid target for COTR? The card says he can move / attack as one of your monsters but not mentions if it is considered a monster for other effects.

COTR: Exhaust this card at the start of your turn and choose 1 monster. Place 1 Raven Flock Servant token in a space adjacent to that monster. Then, that monster suffers 4 Heart.

Dark Charm: Play this card on a hero at the start of your turn. The hero tests Willpower. If he passes, draw 1 Overlord Card. If he fails, you may perform a move or attack action with that hero as if he were one of your monsters this turn. You cannot force him to suffer Fatigue or use a Potion, but you may force him to attack himself.

Edited by Serk

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This is combination not possible. A Dark Charmed hero is considered to be a monster for the duration of the movement. However,  the Dark Charm effect has to be resolved immediately after the card has been played.  To voluntarily interrupt a move action an interrupting effect or action has to be declared. This is very difficult for a charmed hero as Dark Charm allows just one attack or one move. Maybe there are cards or effects that could be used, but at the moment nothing comes to mind. 

CotR  is played "at the start of your turn" and lacks any specific triggering condition that allows it to interrupt a move action. Therefore, it cannot be used as an interrupt here.

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I know it does not have a trigger condition but is voluntary interrupt.   For instance as disciple, would I not be able to move 2 spaces to be adjacent to a hero then use prayer of healing then continue the movement?  If this is invalid, will have to say we've been playing disciple wrong for a long time.   Prayer of healing is during your turn, has no interrupting effect and no action has to be declared as it is not an action.

 Similar to this, if I have an overlord card / plot deck that says play on your turn. Would you have to play it between monster activation, rather then during?

 

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This is a good point. However this is only valid if the triggering conditions "during your turn" and "at the start of your turn" are equivalent in respect to their ability to interrupt move actions. It is well possible but to my knowledge we do not have any confirmation by FFG on this. 

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Posted (edited)

I think I have the answer to this one.

Dark Charm says "You may perform a move or attack action with that hero as if he were one of your monsters this turn." (emphasis added).

In other words, Dark Charm is played at the start of the turn and the willpower test is performed at that time. However, if the hero fails, the Overlord doesn't get to perform the move or attack action with the hero until during the Overlord's turn, which is after start of turn.

You'll notice Dark Host is worded similarly. Its played at start of turn, however what it does is allow you to perform move+attack action on a hero during the turn.

In other words, by the time the Overlord can begin performing the move or attack action with that hero, the "start of turn" phase is over, and Call of the Ravens cannot be used.

And thank goodness, because that would be really OP for a card that is broken enough as it is :P

Edited by Charmy

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@Charmy Holy crap. I always played it as you had to activate the hero immediately. You phrasing it that way- that makes me wonder if you could activate a different monster group first. I don't have the card, but this is making me wonder.

If that's true (you do not need to activate the hero immediately, since the hero would be one of your monster groups) that seems to open up some tactics.

If it's true.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know if you can defer the action.. I've always done it immediately. You're right though, it does open up some interesting possibilities if you do it later in the turn. The wording suggests to me that you can take the action at any point during your turn.

What does seem clear though is that the action is performed after the "start of turn" phase.

Edited by Charmy

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I agree that the wording on the Dark Charm would allow such an interpretation. However, uFAQ have clarified that the action has to be performed immediately. For Dark Charm that is during the start-of-your-turn-phase.

Questions

Quote

How does Dark Charm work?
It reads that Overlord may perform move or attack action with a hero as if he were one of his monsters that turn.
1. Does this action must be performed immediately or can other monsters be activated first?
2. Can charmed hero move through monsters figures (he is treated like a monster)?
3. Can charmed hero move through heroes figures (he is treated like a monster)?
4. Can monsters attack charmed hero (he is treated like a monster)?
5. Can Overlord play Overlord Cards on charmed hero? Especially can traps be played as if he were hero? Can Frenzy be played as if he were monster (is hero activated)?

Answers

Quote

 

1) The action must be performed immediately.

2/3) The charmed hero is treated as a monster for the duration that the card is in play (which is for the move or attack), so if he moves, he cannot move through heroes but can move through monsters.

4) The hero is no longer considered "charmed" after the attack or move, so monsters may attack him.

5) Overlord cards for the most part cannot chain during the Dark Charm move. Since he is treated as a monster, you could not pit trap him. Since his status of being "charmed" ends as soon as his attack resolves, he could not frenzy. However, something like Dark Might or Critical Blow would be perfectly viable.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Sadgit. That ruling that the action must be performed prior to other monster activations seems like a good candidate for the CRRG if it isn't there already.

I presume the same must be done for Dark Host.

Interestingly, if both Dark Charm and Dark Host are played on the same turn, I imagine the Overlord can choose the order in which these 'hero possession' effects are used.

Edited by Charmy

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Descent rules are the gift that just keep on giving.

The action performed by a charmed hero is clearly somewhat able to be interrupted, as you can play cards like "Dark Might" during an attack. However, that's part of the attack, so I'm not sure if it's really an interrupt. The difference between a charmed move and a regular move is that a charmed move takes place outside an "activation". However, that may not necessarily preclude the possibility of interrupts. Triggers such as "when a monster enters a space adjacent to a hero" etc would seem to be quite valid, so why not a simple "at the start of your turn?" 

My gut tells me the cards can't work together, but my gut has been wrong before.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Charmy said:

Thanks Sadgit. That ruling that the action must be performed prior to other monster activations seems like a good candidate for the CRRG if it isn't there already.

I presume the same must be done for Dark Host.

Interestingly, if both Dark Charm and Dark Host are played on the same turn, I imagine the Overlord can choose the order in which these 'hero possession' effects are used.

The CRRG includes "Unless noted otherwise, the effect used to charm the hero has to be resolved immediately."
Do I need to modify that for more clarity?

Dark Charm and Dark Host are both played at the start of the turn. Ignoring a possible interruption, the effect of the card played first needs to be resolved before the second card is played.

Edited by Sadgit

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Posted (edited)

Hm, I think there is still a missing connection. My understanding is that "Start of turn" is a separate , exclusive timing step from "during your turn".

The card Dark Host says that "during this turn" you can perform the move+attack action on a charmed hero. But, if like Dark Charm, the actions must be performed "immediately" after the card is played, then this suggests that "during this turn" includes "start of turn", rather than being a separate step. But then why say "during this turn" at all on the card then?

Personally, I think its way cleaner if "start of turn" and "during your turn" are mutually exclusive and you have to wait till after "Start of turn" before performing the actions from Dark Charm and Dark Host or any other "during your turn" stuff.

That also prevents usage of CoTR on heroes, which I don't think anyone can argue with would be a really unfair interaction.

Of course, this is simply a suggested ruling. Perhaps a question to FFG is in order.

Edited by Charmy

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Posted (edited)

Yes, "start of the turn" and "during your turn" are separate phases of an OL turn and should not be mixed. 

Together with the uFAQ I quoted it seems you can play the two cards and perform the effects like this:

Dark Charm
Play OL card: Start of the turn (step 1)
Perform effect: Start of the turn (step 1)

Dark Host 
Play OL card: Start of the turn (step 1)
Perform effect: Activate monsters (step 2)

 

EDIT

I just checked the official FAQ and indeed there are two answers confirming this:

Quote

Q: When a hero is under the effects of “Dark Host,” is he treated as a monster for the entire overlord turn?
A: No. That hero is treated as a monster only when the overlord chooses to perform the move and attack action with that hero. Before and after  those actions, the hero is still treated as a hero.

 

Quote

Q: If a hero is under the effects of “Dark Host,” can the overlord play “Dash or “Frenzy” on him?”
A: No. “Dash” and “Frenzy” are played when the overlord is activating a monster. Though the overlord receives a move and attack action with the hero affected by “Dark Host,” it is not considered to be an activation.

This actually further confirms that Dark Host's effect is performed "during the turn" as otherwise the Dash and Frenzy were not in question as both cards can only be played "during your turn". I added a note on that to the entry Dark Charm of the CRRG.

Edited by Sadgit

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   I am a bit confused, so dark charm move/attack happens immediate during the start of the turn phase or during on your turn phase? What I agree entirely is that the combo COTR/Dark Charm is OP so I expected ,  call of the raven is great without this combo so even if it would be valid I would still not use it.

But for clearing things up, how can you ask FFG directly?

 

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Posted (edited)

I would say it cannot be played, since the overlord may "move or attack with that hero as if he were a monster this turn" and is not treated as a monster for all purpose of game effects.

Edited by rugal

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, rugal said:

I would say it cannot be played, since the overlord may "move or attack with that hero as if he were a monster this turn" and is not treated as a monster for all purpose of game effects.

Doesn't work. There already was a ruling that the hero can be targeted by Overlord cards during the time they are treated as a monster. For example, as Zaltyre said, you can use Dark Might or Critical Blow on a hero performing an attack while under the influence of Dark Charm/Host. So if he can be targeted by those Overlord  cards, they should be targetable by Call of the Ravens.

Given Sadgit's information about Dark Host, it seems the easiest fix to this is to just treat Dark Charm the same way in that you perform the action at the top of the "activate monsters" phase (Step 2) rather than in Step 1.

I can't see any reason for the two effects to work differently in this aspect and it closes off that CoTR interaction from any of these possession effects. Ultimately up to FFG, but that's how I'd do it.

Edited by Charmy

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