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What makes a Jedi?

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On 3/13/2018 at 6:41 AM, LordBritish said:

Post Clone wars: Who really gives a toss? Anyone can name themselves a Jedi and have legitimate lay to claim.

....um...no I don't really think that's how it works.  I mean, you can say you're a Spartan Warrior all you want, since the Spartans as they were in classical stories are effectively dead, but that doesn't mean you are actually a Spartan Warrior.  No matter how many slow motion kicks you do, or dramatic stands in your backyard while someone sprays you with a hose.

 

 

On 3/13/2018 at 6:41 AM, LordBritish said:

 The organisation is gone, the only reason that they have so many non-Jedi force users is because something some crony old frog thing was waffling about was being treated as the bible, when Yoda himself was shown to be an almost compulsive liar when it suited his purposes. What makes a Jedi is as vague as the force itself, Kanan was always a Jedi but just needed to get his heart back and believe in himself in his ability to eventurally restore the republic. Akosha has legitimate reason not to be considered such because she saw what the Jedi was like and just didn't want to be assoicated with that faceless agency that effectively abandoned her to the republic, yet might also be considered such otherwise because she is actively providing support to rebel cells to assist with reasserting the new republic.
 

I know right?  Almost like the way Jedi's have been depicted has been done by several dozen different people over 40 years, each with their own idea on what the Jedi are, and thus diluted the representation of them with each new publication, that contradicts the previous ones.   

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

....um...no I don't really think that's how it works.  I mean, you can say you're a Spartan Warrior all you want, since the Spartans as they were in classical stories are effectively dead, but that doesn't mean you are actually a Spartan Warrior.  No matter how many slow motion kicks you do, or dramatic stands in your backyard while someone sprays you with a hose.

 

 

I know right?  Almost like the way Jedi's have been depicted has been done by several dozen different people over 40 years, each with their own idea on what the Jedi are, and thus diluted the representation of them with each new publication, that contradicts the previous ones.   

Depends. There is no organisation that determines what is and isn't a Jedi. If someone turned up with a lightsaber and some ability in the mystical, then the average Joe would likely believe them to be a Jedi. The key difference between those Jedi-lites and Luke is that Luke has one claim to fame that makes his claim more legitimate then most; he defeated both the Emperor and Vader. Therefore as a Jedi he is more famous then most that carry a magic cylinder, and as such he would be the greatest even if he wasn't the last. Otherwise his claim as the true successor to the Jedi would have carried no more weight then anyone else, "he was a farmboy that came out of nowhere and blew up the death star and was apparently trained by a Jedi" isn't that much convincing.

Which is the ultimate issue with what the writers are doing; they are hanging way too hard on what a old man once said to a farmboy needing motivation. Who cares if Luke isn't the last Jedi? He defeated the sith so guess who is going to be turning up to his school? Other people who felt he call in the war and decided to unite under one banner, some didn't join with honest intentions and thus the Kylo/Luke divide that happens many years later would have likely been precisely because of those Jedi-lites that ultimately had differing motives. I have explained exactly what two movies should have explained in one paragraph, without all this frankly stupid "quick lets write the Jedi out and have technically not Jedi, and while we are at it never describe the purpose of the Jedi agai" practice that is running amock.

Edited by LordBritish

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15 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Depends. There is no organisation that determines what is and isn't a Jedi. If someone turned up with a lightsaber and some ability in the mystical, then the average Joe would likely believe them to be a Jedi.

Yeah but when this very thing happened in Return of the Jedi, when Luke said to Yoda "Then I am a Jedi."  Yoda, on his death bed, got very amused by this statement, and started laughing himself into a coughing fit.   So "having a saber and some mystical abilities" isn't enough to be a Jedi.

 

 

16 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

The key difference between those Jedi-lites and Luke is that Luke has one claim to fame that makes his claim more legitimate then most; he defeated both the Emperor and Vader. Therefore as a Jedi he is more famous then most that carry a magic cylinder, and as such he would be the greatest even if he wasn't the last. Otherwise his claim as the true successor to the Jedi would have carried no more weight then anyone else, "he was a farmboy that came out of nowhere and blew up the death star and was apparently trained by a Jedi" isn't that much convincing.

Yes, because at that point, in the same film as my above statement, he had gone through his trials, faced the Big Bad at the climax of the story, and was triumphant.   He had faced a powerful force of evil, and was victorious, and still held true to his ideals, and those of the Jedi.

Kanan didn't consider himself a Jedi, and likely wasn't one because at the point in the story, he hadn't actually done much.  He said himself he was just a Padawan when the temple was attacked.  He hadn't faced various trials, but over the course of the series, he did, and eventually, after those things were overcome, he was a Jedi.  He had been tested, and was found worthy.

20 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Which is the ultimate issue with what the writers are doing; they are hanging way too hard on what a old man once said to a farmboy needing motivation. Who cares if Luke isn't the last Jedi? He defeated the sith so guess who is going to be turning up to his school? Other people who felt he call in the war and decided to unite under one banner, some didn't join with honest intentions and thus the Kylo/Luke divide that happens many years later would have likely been precisely because of those Jedi-lites that ultimately had differing motives. I have explained exactly what two movies should have explained in one paragraph, without all this frankly stupid "quick lets write the Jedi out and have technically not Jedi, and while we are at it never describe the purpose of the Jedi agai" practice that is running amock.

Except they didn't write out the Jedi.  The problem here, is you are mixing aspects related to the business side of the Star Wars franchise, and the narrative side.  Who cares if Luke isn't the Last Jedi? Nobody really, it's a marketing ploy to build hype for the next movie, namely The Last Jedi.  But here's the thing, the movies very clearly establish that the Jedi SHOULD persist, which is why Luke was shown to be the grumpy old curmudgeon in the debate with Rey about the Jedi.  The film very clearly comes down on Rey's side of that debate.   Which is why Yoda shows up and tells Luke he's acting like a drama queen, and also why Rey took the Jedi texts, because the Jedi aren't going to die.  She won't let them.  She will rebuild the order with what she has, and the Jedi will continue, in theory in their purest form, since she's going to be operating from the core texts, and not what they became after decades of published fan fiction...I mean established writers, put their own spins (often contrary ones) on what the order is.

As to "the purpose of the Jedi", the only real statement we ever got in that was in the OT, and it was a throwaway line from Ben.  "They were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic"   ....ok?  How?  In what capacity were they empowered to do so?  What official position did they hold in the Republic to enact this guardianship?   That wasn't EVER expanded on, until the prequels, where it was apparently something that was foisted upon them by the Senate (a senate being puppeted by a Sith mind you), and it was a task they were VERY reluctant to take up.   

 

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah but when this very thing happened in Return of the Jedi, when Luke said to Yoda "Then I am a Jedi."  Yoda, on his death bed, got very amused by this statement, and started laughing himself into a coughing fit.   So "having a saber and some mystical abilities" isn't enough to be a Jedi.

 

 

Yes, because at that point, in the same film as my above statement, he had gone through his trials, faced the Big Bad at the climax of the story, and was triumphant.   He had faced a powerful force of evil, and was victorious, and still held true to his ideals, and those of the Jedi.

Kanan didn't consider himself a Jedi, and likely wasn't one because at the point in the story, he hadn't actually done much.  He said himself he was just a Padawan when the temple was attacked.  He hadn't faced various trials, but over the course of the series, he did, and eventually, after those things were overcome, he was a Jedi.  He had been tested, and was found worthy.

Except they didn't write out the Jedi.  The problem here, is you are mixing aspects related to the business side of the Star Wars franchise, and the narrative side.  Who cares if Luke isn't the Last Jedi? Nobody really, it's a marketing ploy to build hype for the next movie, namely The Last Jedi.  But here's the thing, the movies very clearly establish that the Jedi SHOULD persist, which is why Luke was shown to be the grumpy old curmudgeon in the debate with Rey about the Jedi.  The film very clearly comes down on Rey's side of that debate.   Which is why Yoda shows up and tells Luke he's acting like a drama queen, and also why Rey took the Jedi texts, because the Jedi aren't going to die.  She won't let them.  She will rebuild the order with what she has, and the Jedi will continue, in theory in their purest form, since she's going to be operating from the core texts, and not what they became after decades of published fan fiction...I mean established writers, put their own spins (often contrary ones) on what the order is.

As to "the purpose of the Jedi", the only real statement we ever got in that was in the OT, and it was a throwaway line from Ben.  "They were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic"   ....ok?  How?  In what capacity were they empowered to do so?  What official position did they hold in the Republic to enact this guardianship?   That wasn't EVER expanded on, until the prequels, where it was apparently something that was foisted upon them by the Senate (a senate being puppeted by a Sith mind you), and it was a task they were VERY reluctant to take up.   

 

“We’re keepers of the peace, not soldiers” - Mace Windu

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack” - Yoda

As I always understood it, being guardians of peace and justice is the natural role of the Jedi. The Senate turned the Jedi into their military arm, and that is what they did not want.

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23 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

“We’re keepers of the peace, not soldiers” - Mace Windu

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack” - Yoda

As I always understood it, being guardians of peace and justice is the natural role of the Jedi. The Senate turned the Jedi into their military arm, and that is what they did not want.

I agree, I was referring to your comment about "let's never refer to what the purpose of the Jedi is again", and I'm just saying that it's never been overly elaborated on, neither in the OT, or the PT.   There were vague statements that sort of line up with "people who would fight bad things", but that's about as vague and nebulous as you can get.  And since the original material never saw fit to actually state what their purpose was, I don't see how it's a mark against the new movies to be just as vague.    But they didn't have to state it again, at least not to Rey.  She'd already heard the stories.  She even said as much to Han in Awakens.  She's clearly operating from a knowledge base, at least on par with everyone else in the galaxy that didn't live during the Clone Wars, about what a Jedi was.   And Han tells her that the stories are true.  About the Force, and the Jedi, implying that the stories were correct in how they presented the Jedi.  So why bother saying it again?   It isn't necessary for the audience, far from it at this point, given the ubiquitous nature of the Star Wars franchise, and Rey certainly didn't need it either.

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48 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I agree, I was referring to your comment about "let's never refer to what the purpose of the Jedi is again", and I'm just saying that it's never been overly elaborated on, neither in the OT, or the PT.   There were vague statements that sort of line up with "people who would fight bad things", but that's about as vague and nebulous as you can get.  And since the original material never saw fit to actually state what their purpose was, I don't see how it's a mark against the new movies to be just as vague.    But they didn't have to state it again, at least not to Rey.  She'd already heard the stories.  She even said as much to Han in Awakens.  She's clearly operating from a knowledge base, at least on par with everyone else in the galaxy that didn't live during the Clone Wars, about what a Jedi was.   And Han tells her that the stories are true.  About the Force, and the Jedi, implying that the stories were correct in how they presented the Jedi.  So why bother saying it again?   It isn't necessary for the audience, far from it at this point, given the ubiquitous nature of the Star Wars franchise, and Rey certainly didn't need it either.

That was @LordBritish. Regardless, I don’t think Rey did not need Han’s confirmation. After Order 66, the Emperor and Vader did everything they could to relegate the Jedi to folk tales, superstitions, old wives’ tales. The original trilogy  indicated that the Jedi had been largely forgotten by the galaxy, yes, but with the prequels at best being a vague notion in Lucas’ head they never really drove home how that came about and how thorough the Empire's efforts had been. Obi-wan really made it sound more like a couple centuries at least, but there was only just about one generation (going by human standards) between the Jedi being at the height of their power and A New Hope. 

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2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

That was @LordBritish.

Oops, so it was.  My bad, I only glanced at your similar colored icons with a single letter, and figured it was same poster.

5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

After Order 66, the Emperor and Vader did everything they could to relegate the Jedi to folk tales, superstitions, old wives’ tales. The original trilogy  indicated that the Jedi had been largely forgotten by the galaxy, yes, but with the prequels at best being a vague notion in Lucas’ head they never really drove home how that came about and how thorough the Empire's efforts had been. Obi-wan really made it sound more like a couple centuries at least, but there was only just about one generation (going by human standards) between the Jedi being at the height of their power and A New Hope. 

Well Obi-Wan flat out said "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic".  A generation, in biological terms, is usually ruled to be about 25 years for humans (this being roughly how long it would take to age up enough to have children of your own).   So, by that math, he established 25,000 years, not just a few centuries.  And while we aren't shown any time prior to Phantom Menace, it seems like they were at that peak for a loooong time.   

But yes, timeframe between O66 and New Hope is pretty much 19 years, as Luke and Leia were born on Empire Day (just like Ezra), and I think they established that Luke was 19 in the events of New Hope?  So yeah, basically 1 generation, quite literally in this case, given it's the time for a kid to grow up :)  

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1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Oops, so it was.  My bad, I only glanced at your similar colored icons with a single letter, and figured it was same poster.

Well Obi-Wan flat out said "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic".  A generation, in biological terms, is usually ruled to be about 25 years for humans (this being roughly how long it would take to age up enough to have children of your own).   So, by that math, he established 25,000 years, not just a few centuries.  And while we aren't shown any time prior to Phantom Menace, it seems like they were at that peak for a loooong time.   

But yes, timeframe between O66 and New Hope is pretty much 19 years, as Luke and Leia were born on Empire Day (just like Ezra), and I think they established that Luke was 19 in the events of New Hope?  So yeah, basically 1 generation, quite literally in this case, given it's the time for a kid to grow up :)  

No, I meant that Obi-wan made it sound like the height of the Jedi era was at least a few centuries ago when he explained lightsabers to Luke, when it was really only a generation ago. In one generation the Empire turned the Jedi, who’d stood unopposed for millenia, into a fairy tale. That’s a frankly unbelievable achievement. That’s why Rey, one generation later, needed confirmation the tales are true. IMO anyway.

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9 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

No, I meant that Obi-wan made it sound like the height of the Jedi era was at least a few centuries ago when he explained lightsabers to Luke, when it was really only a generation ago.

Are you talking about his line about "an elegant weapon, from a more civilized age"  ?   

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54 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Are you talking about his line about "an elegant weapon, from a more civilized age"  ?   

Full quote:

“It’s your father’s lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster, but a more elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For years, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire.”                

Quite an understatement. The whole chronology feels off, presumably because the prequels were just a smattering of ideas at the time ANH was written.

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9 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Full quote:

“It’s your father’s lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster, but a more elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For years, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire.”                

Quite an understatement. The whole chronology feels off, presumably because the prequels were just a smattering of ideas at the time ANH was written.

...I don't know what version you are watching,  but every iteration of New Hope, including this clip, that I've ever seen for decades, specifies "for over a thousand generations"   He says it around 1:20 time index.

 

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On 2018-03-12 at 6:40 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

And there were a couple of really good reasons why the table was deep-sixed and never seen outside the EotE Beta, namely that the devs realized that if Force and Destiny used a similar format to EotE and that nearly ever specialization would have a Force Rating talent, then setting any sort of "hard cap" on Force Rating (which that chart very much implies) becomes a problem.

Except they resurrected it with Dawn of Rebellion.  The FR ratings pretty much fit that old table.  Palpatine would presumeably be FR7+  So I think it's perfectly valid to use as a guide.

On 2018-03-12 at 6:40 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

Granted, it takes well over a thousand XP to not only get a Force Rating above a 7, but also to purchase Force powers to make use of all those Force dice, so the odds of having PCs reach such lofty heights are generally pretty slim.

Depends how you play.  I have a campaign with my son, and I've been pretty much throwing XP at him, he's at 1200 so far.  But just hit FR3, only has a few Force powers (and none maxed out), only a couple skills with better than YYGG, etc.  I think he could easily absorb another 1000XP, maybe FR4, and still wouldn't be overpowered as a capable Jedi Knight.

On 2018-03-11 at 8:22 AM, JRRP said:

How has that changed or clarified our understanding of what it takes to be considered a Jedi in this version of the rules?

Hasn't really changed it for me, but I kind of liked that old table from the EotE beta.  Just MHO, but the system is easy to break if you let the PCs become one-trick ponies (Force user or not).  If you encourage breadth then that old table works fine, and the PCs will be more in line with what is shown in Dawn of Rebellion.

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3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

No, I meant that Obi-wan made it sound like the height of the Jedi era was at least a few centuries ago when he explained lightsabers to Luke, when it was really only a generation ago. In one generation the Empire turned the Jedi, who’d stood unopposed for millenia, into a fairy tale. That’s a frankly unbelievable achievement. That’s why Rey, one generation later, needed confirmation the tales are true. IMO anyway.

Regarding the underlined text, that's not actually that much of a stretch. Misinformation is vast even with the modern wonders of the internet in real life. Consider how it would be if your galactic pseudo-internet was regulated constantly by an oppressive Empire, talk of Jedi was treason and the citizens were spoonfed lies? The majority of the Republic-turned-Empire probably believed Palpatine's propaganda, considering parts of his announcement of Jedi treason were actually true! He was attacked, he was left scarred, the Jedi did turn on him, this partial truth mixed with lies said at the height of a war being led by Jedi, whom are but 10,000 at their height of members in a galaxy of like quintillions of people. People would be lucky to even see a Jedi from afar. Most information about them was probably rumor when they were around, considering how many secrets they loved to keep.

 

Sure, there would be those that would stand up for what they believed in, remember the Jedi as they were, the chivalrous knights protecting the galaxy from evil but those same people often paid a price for speaking out against the Empire (Ephraim and Mira Bridger, for instance). Others would go on to join the Rebellion to fight against the Empire, a Rebellion that freely spoke of both the heroic Jedi as a symbol of hope that could motivate them to action. So the concept and the truth of what the Jedi represented never fully died because of the Rebellion but open talk of Jedi in the wider galaxy would likely land you being put in a prison work camp or worse, no doubt some might inform on their neighbors if it meant rewards from their local Sector Governors.

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I've been running some campaigns for people playing Jedi at the twilight of the Republic. Mechanically for a fully trained Knight I've been giving them:

150xp free to spend

100xp exclusively on Force Powers

150xp exclusively to spend on the Padawan Survivor talent tree (slightly modified)

This has proved pretty satisfactory for them so far. 

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If I was held at gunpoint and forced to give mechanics for it, I would probably just hand wave it to the following.

Have Force Rating 2 at least (don't care how you get there)

Have at least 2 ranks in Lightsaber skill

Have at least a few talents in any of the Lightsaber spec trees (ideally in reflect since this seems to be universal from the films)

Have at least 3 Force powers with at least a few upgrades in each of them beyond just the basic ability.  

Beyond that I wouldn't really worry about it, and would instead make them actually earn their title of Knight by going out and doing stuff worthy of note and merit.

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Minimum Jedi for me:

FR 2, at least one rank in Parry and Reflect, and the base powers of Enhance, Sense, and Move. Virtually every youngling in Star Wars should be capable of that much, at least. Anything more is entirely dependent on the character.

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