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Final Table and players won't play

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48 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

If you could Final Salvo instead of playing a game, then every round in a tournament could be resolved without anyone playing actually playing.

Yes, except people don't want to randomly win, and they are also there to play. But after an 12h tournament and you are the two last ones, And the difference between first and second is often a "joke" in price, then rolling it out can do the job

Edited by muribundi

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4 hours ago, muribundi said:

Yes, except people don't want to randomly win, and they are also there to play. But after an 12h tournament and you are the two last ones, And the difference between first and second is often a "joke" in price, then rolling it out can do the job

Oh but NO!!!  They can't do that!  They MUST really put in some real effort into another good game that can wow the remaining two or three spectators and officials other they should get booted and treated like they didn't even play a single game during the entire day.  :wacko:

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1 hour ago, StevenO said:

Oh but NO!!!  They can't do that!  They MUST really put in some real effort into another good game that can wow the remaining two or three spectators and officials other they should get booted and treated like they didn't even play a single game during the entire day.  :wacko:

It's not about "wowing" the remaining spectators. It's not even that they "owe" anyone still there a game.

If they are participating in the tournament, then they are there to play the game.

If they do not want to play their game, then they are effectively no longer participating in the tournament. If they're not taking part in the tournament, they're not eligible for prizes.

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21 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

If they are participating in the tournament, then they are there to play the game.

If they do not want to play their game, then they are effectively no longer participating in the tournament. If they're not taking part in the tournament, they're not eligible for prizes.

Bull. That's just an opinion. Many people disagree. I happen to think all the sane people agree, but that's just me.

In essence, please don't state that as if it is factual.

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On 3/16/2018 at 5:42 PM, StevenO said:

When I mention how discouraging threads like this make me when it comes to tournament play it's that some people seem so stuck up on themselves and the THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE mentality.  It's also been brewing for a long time.

Perhaps tournaments are supposed to be about having fun, playing some X-Wing, and maybe winning some prizes in mostly that order.  What started sickening me was back when the powers that be decided draws should be impossible.  Not only ending intentional draws, which I believe would be fine if other measures could break up points a little more than a binary win-lose system for each, but just the idea every game needs to be played to a conclusion and if it isn't for ANY REASON then one side needs to be punished.  This thread is just horrible when I see comments that two players who've already made their way to the final can't just call it then without having to spend another 90 minutes being miserable.

For all of those who talk about the sanctity of the game and that the finally game MUST be played actually will stick around an event just to watch two or three more rounds of X-Wing being played?  Perhaps a better question is how many people (as a percentage of those who start the day) who have anything better to do actually stay to watch the final lonely game of being played?

When it comes to finals the Super Bowl may be big but in a lot of things it's those last round BEFORE the final game that are actually the most fun and best to watch.  If you're a fan of basketball this week and next are probably the two best weeks of the year; the weak after that when it's down the the final four not so much (unless you're invested in one of the remaining teams) as it's just a few games.  The college football playoffs suffer a very similar fate and there it's down to just two teams.  If it's getting dark even before that X-Wing final happens who really WANTS to stay and watch it after 8 hours of playing already?

^This.  It's a game, folks.  The world doesn't change if the top two guys are too tired to play.  And if that is the case, someone at FFG should think of a better way to organize tournaments so that the last 2 guys/gals standing aren't zombie dog meat when they sit down for the Big One.

And as far as the Super Bowl analogy goes, those players DID NOT SPEND ALL DAY PLAYING EVERY GAME IN THE PLAYOFFS BEFOREHAND.

You want the Sport-Wing Super Bowl to be the best game those player got?  Then don't do it at the end of a 12+ hour day.

Unless the game matters in some way as an event in and of itself (being streamed, very public like Worlds), the final decision is up to the players.  They are the ones who are there to have fun.  Not brutally slog it out in Iron Man X-Wing: No One Quits Unless Someone Dies.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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48 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

It's not about "wowing" the remaining spectators. It's not even that they "owe" anyone still there a game.

If they are participating in the tournament, then they are there to play the game.

If they do not want to play their game, then they are effectively no longer participating in the tournament. If they're not taking part in the tournament, they're not eligible for prizes.

Funny, here we are at the end and there is no one left in a tournament except for these two.  Seems they are the ones entitled the top prizes and if they don't feel the need to have a pissing contest they should be able to use other standard means to determine a winner.

If it's not about "wowing" the remaining spectators and they don't "owe" anyone a game why the ____ should they need to go through the  motions?

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1 hour ago, InquisitorM said:

Bull. That's just an opinion. Many people disagree. I happen to think all the sane people agree, but that's just me.

In essence, please don't state that as if it is factual.

Of course what I'm saying is an opinion. What you've said in the thread is an opinion too. This whole thread is fueled on opinions.

I'm not stating anything as fact. If I had said something along the lines of "the rules say that...", then I would be stating something as fact.

Yeah, I suppose you could read my last post as me stating fact, but it's not.

 

45 minutes ago, StevenO said:

If it's not about "wowing" the remaining spectators and they don't "owe" anyone a game why the ____ should they need to go through the  motions?

If they want prizes, then they should go through the motions of what it takes to get them.

At what other point in the tournament can two opponents choose not to play their game and still be allowed to continue for prizes? Why would that change at the final round?

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30 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

At what other point in the tournament can two opponents choose not to play their game and still be allowed to continue for prizes? Why would that change at the final round?

In fact at any point. A player always as the right to concede, this have nothing to do with dropping. And even dropping change nothing.

If you make it to top 4, you have the right to drop, you will receive your top 4 prize. If you make it to the final, you have the right to drop there, this will place you second and you will receive the second position prize. I minority tried to say that you had no right to concede. But this have been refuted, and is clearly ok with the tournament rules document.

What we are arguing is what happen if the top two decide that they want to drop. You can't suddently say that there is no first and second. One concede, you have your first and second, but the two concede. Sorry no one won the tournament.

And for the Super Bowl analogy, please lets not compare professional players, that are paid to play and "random pro" from a hobby that happen to have money reward.

At least use poker tournament, where people are in fact spliting the pot at the top...

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I know a day/weekend can be long and I know some places that hold events aren't the most comfortable or air conditioned or whatever.

But surely, unless it was blind luck, these players went to that event knowing that both as players and as lists, they had a VERY good chance of making it far into the event, maybe even the top 2.

So surely you'd be prepared and ready for it to be a long day/event and you'd know that you would have to play at a late hour or after a long day of other matches.

I know it's just a game, and that for this event at least who was first and who was second didn't really matter THAT much. But for me if I did that well at an event of a certain level or higher, no matter how tiring or bad the day was by that point I'd feel I earned my place at the top and owed it to myself to see if I could go all the way against the other person who had reached that level.

 

But then people play differently and for different reasons I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Of course what I'm saying is an opinion. What you've said in the thread is an opinion too. This whole thread is fueled on opinions.

Reeeeeeeally. Fine. You want to play? Let's play.

3 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

If they are participating in the tournament, then they are there to play the game.

If/then statement. IF X is true then Y is true. Not stated as an opinion. This is a statement of fact.

On 11/03/2018 at 9:57 AM, InquisitorM said:

As long as they earned those places fair and square, I'd let them have it and level an unsportsmanlike conduct charge at anyone who complained. If you want to be in the final, stop losing.

 

If X, then opinion. If Y, then suggested [snarky] course of action.

1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Yeah, I suppose you could read my last post as me stating fact, but it's not.

Yeah, you could read it that way because that's how it's written. Funny what happens when people react to what you actually write. 

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There is literally nothing that anyone can do in the rules to stop me from setting up all of my ships on the board before immediately flying off and going to buy a sandwich. To claim otherwise would imply that the judge either has mind control powers or somehow slavery is legal again. 

The people complaining about them needing to play the game seem to be the type of people who aren't going to be making the cuts and getting to final tables anyways. 

Take the Canadian Nationals finals for example. You get 2 brothers who came in the car together on a long car ride on a multiple-day event. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if one of them conceded/flew their ships off of the table so that they could get home before midnight, and they go play the "real" final at home next weekend. That exact scenario happened at the top 50 invitational, but with different people.

Take a system open as an example- If i'm someone's pair-down at a hyperspace, (eg, they are 5-0 and I am 4-1) I'm immediately flying my **** off of the board and congratulating them on their invite. 

Similarly for salvo-ing immediately, they can either 

- Neither set dials, claiming that they are still thinking for 2 hours- You can't be called for slowplay if your opponent insists it's not a problem. 

- Both immediately fly off of the board, as the game does not end until the end of the turn. 

At the IL regional, me and my opponent decided to call the game at 30 minutes in as the current gamestate (a full health QD vs a full health poe, everything else is dead) as I probably wasn't going to kill him, and chasing a Poe around for 45 minutes for 8 ******* MOV isn't worth our time. We said that the game ended, went to grab food, and the judge was told. No one had any problems with that. 

TLDR- You can't force people to play the game. You can't evict them for sportsmanship if their opponent is doing the same thing and has no issues. You are a dude who helps make decisions for a plastic spaceship game, not judge jury and executioner of forcing people to play the game. 

Edited by Kaptin Krunch

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50 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Take the Canadian Nationals finals for example. You get 2 brothers who came in the car together on a long car ride on a multiple-day event. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if one of them conceded/flew their ships off of the table so that they could get home before midnight, and they go play the "real" final at home next weekend. That exact scenario happened at the top 50 invitational, but with different people.

I would be curious to get their input, but looking at the final, I wonder if they did not in fact throw the game away...

The Imperial Ace brother got way to up front and then just removed his shuttle from play when there was no dmg on hit

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4 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

Reeeeeeeally. Fine. You want to play? Let's play.

Settle down there, hotshot.

 

4 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

If/then statement. IF X is true then Y is true. Not stated as an opinion. This is a statement of fact.

If X, then opinion. If Y, then suggested [snarky] course of action.

M'kay. Alternative wording needed to ensure it's not mistaken as fact. Got it.

 

4 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

Yeah, you could read it that way because that's how it's written. Funny what happens when people react to what you actually write. 

Settle down there, hotshot.

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On 3/21/2018 at 7:45 AM, Derpzilla88 said:

Except that they can only Final Salvo if, at the end of the game, both players have the same score.

If you don't play the game, you can't Final Salvo. If you could Final Salvo instead of playing a game, then every round in a tournament could be resolved without anyone playing actually playing.

Not playing the game is p close to ending one with both players at full score. 

Edited by FourDogsInaHorseSuit

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I'm of three minds about the issue. One mind for each role I fill in the situation:

1. A hyper-competitive player, whose missed out on the cut at a mid-sized regional by a slim margin, and still totally fresh for another 8 hours of game play. I'm 2nd or 3rd , and I've noticed my counterpart for the final round is flying something I'm very confident against. I've set aside Monday for some recovery time after Sunday's elimination rounds, and I live locally in a comfy domicile with a good bed and home-cooked meals. I came to the tournament for three reasons: to get me some sweet custom dice, a set of templates and a bye to nationals. We're just now going into the final round, and 1st and 2nd want to drop.
2. A hyper-competitive player whose made the cut at a mid-sized regionals, but not only has final exams in the morning (of the type that, if failed, will literally ruin my life for decades), but has also been sick for the past week and a half due to allergic reactions caused by incompetent restaurant staff (this kind of food poisoning is an incredibly common occurrence for me). I'm operating on 3 hours sleep already, because the only accommodation I could find was at a backpacker's I've got a 2-hour drive home after the game, which is going to be a midnight drive along country roads known for their deadly condition. I'm probably playing against another player  in a similar situation here. I came to the tournament with 2 goals: to get a set of templates and a bye to the nationals I actually got time off for.
3. A TO whose trying to balance the competing demands of a bunch of players, all with slightly differing priorities and moral standpoints. I'm tired and hungry, but the stream has 8'000 viewers from across the world and they're complaining about the delay. 3rd and 4th place are wandering around, wondering what their stakes will actually be. I've got 2 hours of pack up and bureaucracy to go after the tournament finishes. My goal is to provide an enjoyable and fair experience for everyone until the final die is rolled.

Now, if I'm playing in role 1 I've got a pretty clear agenda. first I'd hold my tongue and see if first and second mutually agree to drop, thus giving myself and 3rd/4th a chance to play off for the top two spots. Failing that I'd talk to the judges and the top two players about myself and my counterpart playing off for the Nationals bye, while the top two drop with all other second and first place prizes. If worst comes to worst I wouldn't press the matter, but I'll remember the venue and those players for next time, and I certainly won't accommodate them in the same way.

As a role 2 player, my biggest concern is getting the bye I came for. I'm going to acknowledge the general unfairness of rolling off for a win, but highlight the fact that me and my opponent can intentionally play to a final salvo in 10 minutes if everyone presses the matter. I'd offer to donate my 1st/2nd plac prize pool to the players that actually compete for the last round as consolation. Of course, the TO can force us to either play legitimately or drop, at which point I'd probably just have an aside with my counterpart player and play scissors-paper-rock in secret for the top spot, and the loser resigns upon game start (which is legitimate according to tournament rules).

Role 3 is where it gets tricky, since there are competing demands from a lot of sources, and a "fair" course of action probably isn't very entertaining. The streamers want a good final game with high stakes, and they want it now. The finalists (1st and 2nd) want to keep their bye, or at least roll off for a chance at having it. The runners up (3rd and 4th) want to compete for the bye if the finalists don't actually play for it. Physically present spectators (of which in my area there are normally many) want a quick resolution to the problem so they can go home. I also have the added complication of FFG expecting me to uphold their name and tournament regulations, lest I be prevented from ever hosting a competitive/premier competition again.

I've got a few options as a TO here, with a few sub-options:
1. I can let the finalists roll off for the bye.
      1.a. I can enforce a requirement that both finalists - regardless of the roll, must give their custom dice prizes to the runners up as consolation.
      1.b. I can enforce they pay for the runners up's entry fees between them, since they came to the tournament primarily for the bye.
      1.c. I can enforce that the finalists give up any other unique prizes, like store credit, templates, tokens etc equally to the top 8 as consolation.

2. I can let the finalists Final Salvo for the bye, with all the sub-options of (1).

3. I can prevent the finalists from rolling off or final salvo'ing, and give them the choice of either playing the game out properly or dropping as 3rd and 4th place based on MoV, with associated prizes.

4. I can drop them on grounds of collusion upon hearing their plan to roll for the final game.
      4.a. I can give them both a retrospective loss against their top 4 opponents, effectively swapping their positions and letting 3rd and 4th play it out for all associated prizes of 1st and 2nd.

5. I can collaborate with the top 4 and see if we can reach an accord on prize distribution between the top 4 places, then have 3rd and 4th play it out for their respective prize pools.

6. I can have first and second place combine their dice pool against third and fourth place, and have a roll off for which 'game' gets the bye in the prize pool, allowing the finalists to final salvo it out if they winn the roll-off against the runner ups.

Now, 1 goes against FFG documentation on tournament etiquette, and is going to make the stream very angry, not to mention 1st and second place. 1.a,b and c is a compromise between all parties, and will likely lead to resolution, albeit a restless one.. 2 is technically a legitimate game strategy (especially if both lists have a ship of equal pilot skill), so FFG would be on shaky grounds with a reprimand, but the stream's still going to be furious, as will first and second place. 3 is going to make all spectators happy, and the runners up will be pleases, but it's going against FFG regulations, and the top 2 will probably complain. 4 is a bit of a safe course of action, since I'm hitting the finalists when they know they're doing something sneaky, and all other parties are happy at the quick resolution, but it's not really fair when they haven't actually done anything yet. 5 is going to be great if an agreement can be reached, but otherwise leads to more conflict and wasted time.

6 is what I believe to be the best course of action. It's quick, clear and leads to an interesting final game 50% of the time. It gives a bit of a "what should have happened" feel to the top 4 games, so that even if the runner ups don't win the roll off, at least they know they'd have collectively lost the final salvo if it came down to it in the finals.

Regardless, it's a mess.

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13 hours ago, Astech said:

I'm of three minds about the issue. One mind for each role I fill in the situation:

...

Regardless, it's a mess.

Role 1.  You are the WAAC player who doesn't give a **** about how it takes to win.  If you're in one of those top two spots you're going to play.  If you've been eliminated in the round of 4 you're going to WHINE and do everything you can to figure out how to get something YOU DO NOT DESERVE because you've already lost and been eliminated.  If you're out, which you are if you've lost to the remaining players, you're out and don't get to say bo about what goes on.

Role 2.  If you've been defeated in the round of four you're already on your way home because the last game doesn't affect you.  If you won in the round of four maybe you talk to your opponent about how you're feeling.  Now it's essentially just the two of you left and your "game" doesn't affect anyone else who has already been eliminated for the tournament.  You may present the idea of a draw which will immediately lead to a tie breaker but of course there is no reason he'd need to accept.  If you're that hyper-competitive type and the opponent doesn't want to risk a draw then you play as suffer the result just like he does; if you're opponent is fine with the draw and semi-random resolution you grin and bear it no matter the resolution.

Role 3.  You may be in a tough spot but you're now down to 2 players at the top and how they want to resolve there game really doesn't affect the rest of the tournament one bit so you let them decide.  Now if you've got that ravenous crowd waiting to rip your head off because they want blood (how you get that I don't know) you could offer them a 3rd-place match if those at the 3-4 spot wanted to play.  Of course what if one of those has already gone headed out now what are you going to do?  If you're the TO and don't respect the process of elimination that produces the final two maybe you shouldn't be hosting anymore.

 

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Tournaments are for the players, not for the TO to try to force some sort of undesired, unwanted, and likely unfun game onto people with some weird power trip.

If I was TO, I would verify clear understanding with both players that the game would be determined by Final Salvo, Coin-Flip, whatever means they agreed upon, and that they understand rough odds of the method they chose and then resolve it.

No one else gets a say, 3rd place and below already had their chance at the spots and lost. Those two players already played through all of them and earned the final table.

Its a game, people, played for fun. If the two of them don't want to play it out, let's wrap it up, get prizes done and go get beers a couple hours early.

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On 3/24/2018 at 4:16 PM, Astech said:

I've got a few options as a TO here, with a few sub-options:

Actually, you don't.

If you tell the players they can't go immediately to Final Salvo, then they will do one of several completely legal things in spite of you. First they will simply fly their ships off the table and go to Final Salvo. If you refuse to accept that for some reason, they will castle and spend 2 hours planning their dials at the nearest bar and go to Final Salvo. If you refuse to allow that, then the first one gets sick of your ridiculousness will just concede to his opponent.

There is no way you're actually going to force them to play out the game. Just accept the wishes of your players and don't make a fuss.

Edited by DR4CO

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36 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Actually, you don't.

If you tell the players they can't go immediately to Final Salvo, then they will do one of several completely legal things in spite of you. First they will simply fly their ships off the table and go to Final Salvo. If you refuse to accept that for some reason, they will castle and spend 2 hours planning their dials at the nearest bar and go to Final Salvo. If you refuse to allow that, then the first one gets sick of your ridiculousness will just concede to his opponent.

There is no way you're actually going to force them to play out the game. Just accept the wishes of your players and don't make a fuss.

I'd like to first state that I'm talking only about Premier anf Fromal tournaments here (Regionals+), not casual FLGS events.

Well... If I'm monitoring their game continuously, they can try, because as per the X-wing Tournament Regulations:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

I've already caught them colluding to manipulate scoring, so as the tournament organiser I have the authority to drop them right then and there. If I give them some slack and allow them to play out their game, and they slow play for two hours on dials I'll drop them after the first 10 minutes. Flying their ships off the boar intentionally is definitely abuse of the rules, so another ground for dropping them.

I will, however, accept concession from one player to another. It's legal and fair. Of course, I doubt that either player would willingly give their last opponent the best reward of the tournament after 14+ hours of brutal game play, so we're back to my orignal set of options.

The wishes of those two players might be to flip a coin for the win, but the wishes of every other player and the stream and spectators is for them to play a game, or have a substitute game for the "tournament win".

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Once you get to elimination rounds the idea of "scoring" is completely meaningless.  Once the elimination bracket begins there it's "win" or you're out.  It really doesn't matter how you win or by how much as a Final Salvo victory is worth EXACTLY as much as curb-stomp match is to the person who wins.

The wishes 

of those two players might be to flip a coin for the win, but the wishes of every other player and the stream and spectators is for them to play a game, or have a substitute game for the "tournament win".

There are no other "players" at your final table and your stream/spectators don't get a say in the outcome either.  If the stream/spectators are so important then I wonder what kind of kickbacks they're providing the TO to manipulate the results into something that would provide a better spectacle?  If making other people is happy I'm guessing it may be easy enough to make sure certain calls go certain ways during a tournament just to make sure certain players and/or squadrons advance.

Edited by StevenO

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16 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Once you get to elimination rounds the idea of "scoring" is completely meaningless.  Once the elimination bracket begins there it's "win" or you're out.  It really doesn't matter how you win or by how much as a Final Salvo victory is worth EXACTLY as much as curb-stomp match is to the person who wins.

There are no other "players" at your final table and your stream/spectators don't get a say in the outcome either.  If the stream/spectators are so important then I wonder what kind of kickbacks they're providing the TO to manipulate the results into something that would provide a better spectacle?  If making other people is happy I'm guessing it may be easy enough to make sure certain calls go certain ways during a tournament just to make sure certain players and/or squadrons advance.

Scoring matters very much for the loser though, because tournament prizes are often based on place in the top places (often significant store credit/quality painted ships). So manipulation of who wins - even at the final tables - will affect MoV and prize distribution in many cases.

The stream is threatening incredibly bad publicity if a game is mismanaged. Do you remember the guy who was cheating at Worlds and was caught immediately by the stream, but the result was fudged, so the guy got the win regardless? That had enormous publicity blow back in the community. This kind of deal isn't really the same level of rules ignorance, but it is an issue that requires a good deal of thought for all parties invested in the outcome.

Edited by Astech

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I have to admit that its a tad bit disrespectful to those who put in the time and money to put on the event, not to mention everyone else who played, to have the top table decide they no longer want to play it out. Having said that, you cannot force them to play and expect a good honest match. To me, the final call should come down the organizer, the one who hosted and/or funded the event. If they say let them salvo, then let them salvo. 

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