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brunoamorim13

Final Table and players won't play

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So, a few facts here (not my personal opinions).

 

1) 3rd and 4th place have already been eliminated.  They are not allowed to come back to play the final match.  As soon as the top 4 match concludes, the losers are eliminated.  If the winner decides after the match is over that he doesn't want to play anymore, his following round opponent gets a bye.  Therefore, the only way that the 3/4 players would be able to "take their place" would be if the would-be winner of the top 4 match conceded prior to the match being concluded.

2) So as soon as the first player in the final game says that he's not playing the final round, he has conceded the round, and the other player wins the tourney.

3) But more than likely, it's never an actual concession, it's a discussion of a concession between the players.  Technically, this is collusion and is against the rules.  If you're being a hard ***, you would DQ both players, and the winner would be the highest seeded player that was eliminated in the top 4.  Note that there would still not be a game played between 3rd and 4th.

4) But in all honesty, you're not going to outright DQ them for discussing it.  You're going to tell them they need to play it out and that you can't allow them to just skip the game.  If they decide to set their ships up backwards, that's 100% absolutely allowed.  Just realize there's no such thing as simultaneous flying.  Therefore, whoever moves the final ship ends up winning the game - even if his maneuver would have flown his ship off the board - even if it's the same PS as the other player.

5) So therefore, the only true way to not play out the game would be to go to final salvo.  This now exists on the final table.  However, you must give the players the full 120minutes.  Therefore, they would have to avoid combat for the full 120minutes to trigger the final salvo - you cannot do it after round 1.  Oh, and since they cannot slow play, they actually need to play out the rounds.  The best way to do this is to setup such that your ships are all doing 1 straight into each other.  But note this does mean that you have to continuously set dials, reveal dials, and not go anywhere for the full 120 minutes to trigger final salvo.  And yes - I've seen this happen (though it was round 6 not the finals).

So basically, the only real way to not play the game would be for the two to collude, and the TO to DQ them, for one of them to concede to the other, or for one of them to fly all of his ships off the board.  There is no way to skip through the game to just final salvo or a chance cube to see who wins.

 

That all said, those are the rules, but there's nothing to say that strictly adhering to the rules is the most agreeable path for the TO.  

 

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Those in third are fourth are no longer tournament participants. They are now casual observers.

Last night I officiated a high school soccer match. The coach is screaming for "illegal throw" and "that's not offsides." Guess who does not care? The referee.

The game of soccer (particularly at the youth level) is about the players on the pitch. The ones in the game. THOSE are the ones who have the right to complain. The coach has no say. The parents in the stands have no say. Forget the fact that both the parents and the coach were wrong (I showed the coach Law 11 in the book after the match and explained the correct points of offside he was getting wrong)... but during the match, the only people who get a say in what is going on and who's opinions actually matter to me, the referee... is the players who are playing the game.

IT'S THERE GAME. Not the coaches. The the spectators. It's the player's game.

In the case of an Xwing final, only the remaining participants matter. Anyone who has already been eliminated by previous results are just casual observers.

Edited by Sephlar

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5 minutes ago, Khyros said:

2) So as soon as the first player in the final game says that he's not playing the final round, he has conceded the round, and the other player wins the tourney

Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechnically all ships will resolve their movements during the activation phase. At the end of the round is the only time you check to see if a player has run out of ships, RAW. As no players would have any remaining ships it would then go to final salvo. Which makes for a stronger point to skipping placement and going straight to final salvo, whether or not the players go through the completely legal motions they are going to end up huckin' dice at each other to decide the game... ¯\_()_/¯

 

Quote

WINNING THE GAME

The game ends at the end of a round if all of a player’s ships are destroyed. The player with no ships remaining loses, and the player with at least one ship remaining wins. If both players’ last remaining ships are destroyed in the same round, the game ends in a draw.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Rules Reference | Page 20

 

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8 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechnically all ships will resolve their movements during the activation phase. At the end of the round is the only time you check to see if a player has run out of ships, RAW. As no players would have any remaining ships it would then go to final salvo. Which makes for a stronger point to skipping placement and going straight to final salvo, whether or not the players go through the completely legal motions they are going to end up huckin' dice at each other to decide the game... ¯\_()_/¯

 

 

I stand corrected then.  I guess you can line up backwards and fly off the table.  Though you would have to do it without talking to your opponent about doing it, and whoever *places* the last ship (or if someone has a ship with a 0 stop/backwards maneuver) they could fail to place that ship backwards.  So it takes an uncommunicated trust in order to get to that point.

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Beware people that throw DQ threat around.

You have the right to concede to your opponent, and stop saying you would bring someone lower, you would be the one DQed, the rule are clear. In top game, you don't replace someone that concede.

Also Unsporting Conduct is for collusion to manipulate scoring. There is no more scoring in a top game. You can talk about who to concede to. You are not breaking the integrity of the tournament anymore.

"Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden."

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17 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

There's nothing wrong with tournament play mate.  I've played almost always for sheep stations (i.e. even our regular night at our FLGS had vouchers on the line) but yet never have had a bad experience in the 2+ years Ive been playing.

 

14 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Do what I do and never make the cut anyway.

 

13 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Don't base your expectations on a 'worst case' forum thread!
...
To be more on-topic, I know of a couple of games where the players didn't play. Neither were in a final. In one, a dad conceded so his son progressed to the semi-final. In the other, 2 brothers flying the same lists had practiced against one another repeatedly and the outcome almost always came down to the dice, so they Final Salvo'ed so whoever won would be fresher for the final of a Regional.

 

11 hours ago, Jike said:

I wouldn't be discouraged at all. I've been to dozens of tournaments in the last 3 years and I've never encountered a situation like this. It's extremely rare and I think it's better to discuss things as we are now to establish some ground rules so if the situation does arise again TOs have something to refer to.

When I mention how discouraging threads like this make me when it comes to tournament play it's that some people seem so stuck up on themselves and the THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE mentality.  It's also been brewing for a long time.

Perhaps tournaments are supposed to be about having fun, playing some X-Wing, and maybe winning some prizes in mostly that order.  What started sickening me was back when the powers that be decided draws should be impossible.  Not only ending intentional draws, which I believe would be fine if other measures could break up points a little more than a binary win-lose system for each, but just the idea every game needs to be played to a conclusion and if it isn't for ANY REASON then one side needs to be punished.  This thread is just horrible when I see comments that two players who've already made their way to the final can't just call it then without having to spend another 90 minutes being miserable.

For all of those who talk about the sanctity of the game and that the finally game MUST be played actually will stick around an event just to watch two or three more rounds of X-Wing being played?  Perhaps a better question is how many people (as a percentage of those who start the day) who have anything better to do actually stay to watch the final lonely game of being played?

When it comes to finals the Super Bowl may be big but in a lot of things it's those last round BEFORE the final game that are actually the most fun and best to watch.  If you're a fan of basketball this week and next are probably the two best weeks of the year; the weak after that when it's down the the final four not so much (unless you're invested in one of the remaining teams) as it's just a few games.  The college football playoffs suffer a very similar fate and there it's down to just two teams.  If it's getting dark even before that X-Wing final happens who really WANTS to stay and watch it after 8 hours of playing already?

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There are ways to not play the final game without colluding to a draw. FFG OP rules are there to prevent draws. What if it was a tournament like a regional that included a bye as top prize?

I get that people are tired. Set up your ships at the edge and hard 3 off, I don't care. And feel free to pass on whatever swag is being awarded, but stick to the rules for tournaments. Especially if the lists have mirror top PS, then initiative decides who wins.

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2 hours ago, JasonCole said:

There are ways to not play the final game without colluding to a draw. FFG OP rules are there to prevent draws. What if it was a tournament like a regional that included a bye as top prize?

I get that people are tired. Set up your ships at the edge and hard 3 off, I don't care. And feel free to pass on whatever swag is being awarded, but stick to the rules for tournaments. Especially if the lists have mirror top PS, then initiative decides who wins.

Initiative no longer decides wins.  Victory Conditions aren't checked until the end of the round so if everyone flies off then you're back to the draw and Final Salvo.

 

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37 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Initiative no longer decides wins.  Victory Conditions aren't checked until the end of the round so if everyone flies off then you're back to the draw and Final Salvo.

 

I think the point is that in a mirror match, who gets initiative often decides who wins at the start of the game, so what's the point in playing.

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23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think the point is that in a mirror match, who gets initiative often decides who wins at the start of the game, so what's the point in playing.

I'll give that one.  I see "lists have mirror top PS" which doesn't scream full mirror match to me.  If lists squads are that dependent on things there is a problem and it goes far beyond playing, or not playing, a final match.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JasonCole said:

Huh, I was actually assuming that the first one to fly all their ships off the table first took second. 

An incorrect assumption.

Assumptions can get you into trouble and lead to other issues when they are incorrect although I'll admit that at one time that may have been the correct ruling.

 

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We arent owed a final match.  If the top two players want to quit then let em roll dice in a final Salvo and go home.  The semi-final games were probably better to watch anyway.  And the final players get the stigma of being little *******.

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I still don't understand what does it change to the eliminated players if the two finalists play the game or not.

YOu all talk about collusion...There is collusion if the Agreement between players has any influence on other players placement or results (e.g. during swiss rounds it can change their SoS therefore their swiss rank) .  In the final game it is only them.

Unless you have put bets on the final game...But It would be really sad...

 

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Eh, I suppose a DQ for refusing to play at the final table is pretty harsh (though would certainly feel justifiable).

I'd say ask both players if they still want to play the game. If they both say no, then that's fine.

But neither of them get the first or second place prizes. If they don't play the game then first and second player can't be properly determined, therefore their prizes are forfeit. Third and fourth place players get the prizes they would normally get, but the first and second place prizes go to the store to do with as they please.

They can't just Final Salvo right there and let that decide it. Final Salvo is reserved for the end of a game. If they don't play the game, they can't Final Salvo.

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These two hypothetical players still earned their top 2 placement, how can you justify passing their prize support on to third and fourth place? Again, this can all be defeated by the players agreeing to play (because they want to avoid the TO being a yuge D and arbitrarily denying them the prize support that is rightfully theirs) and just jointly flying all their ships off the board in the first round. Now you've had your final match, it now must go to final salvo, and you've wasted 5-10 minutes of everyone's time when you could've just let them final salvo it without physically placing their toys on the table.

Ridiculous! Both final players earned their placement, what they do from there is not relevant to how everyone else placed - if you want to get the top seed prize support don't lose your matches. I head to regionals this weekend, if I somehow manage to take third I take third. If the final two don't want to play I honestly don't care - they did better than me they can resolve the final match with a tickle fight for all I care. I just can't comprehend why so many people are upset by final placed players not wanting to play? Clearly you're not making it to the final match, so how does this effect you? Placing 53rd or 50th isn't a whole lot different...

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Everyone needs to read this.

Tournament Regulations.

3rd and 4th place are already eliminated, they can't enter back into the tournament. The 2 finalist are only beholden to each other, not the rest of the field or the spectators. All of this talk of DQing people isn't based in the rules and is based on people's emotions and opinions. 

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4 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

These two hypothetical players still earned their top 2 placement, how can you justify passing their prize support on to third and fourth place? Again, this can all be defeated by the players agreeing to play (because they want to avoid the TO being a yuge D and arbitrarily denying them the prize support that is rightfully theirs) and just jointly flying all their ships off the board in the first round. Now you've had your final match, it now must go to final salvo, and you've wasted 5-10 minutes of everyone's time when you could've just let them final salvo it without physically placing their toys on the table.

Ridiculous! Both final players earned their placement, what they do from there is not relevant to how everyone else placed - if you want to get the top seed prize support don't lose your matches. I head to regionals this weekend, if I somehow manage to take third I take third. If the final two don't want to play I honestly don't care - they did better than me they can resolve the final match with a tickle fight for all I care. I just can't comprehend why so many people are upset by final placed players not wanting to play? Clearly you're not making it to the final match, so how does this effect you? Placing 53rd or 50th isn't a whole lot different...

But also in this hypothetical situation, they are playing in the tournament to get prizes. If they do not play their final match, then prizes should be forfeit because they were not played for. Those first and second place prizes don't go to third or fourth place, so they'd probably just to the store. If they're too tired to play the final round, then the prizes weren't important enough to them anyways so it shouldn't matter whether they get them or not.

Also, how can prizes for first and second place be given out when first and second place were never determined because both players won't play?

If they want to fly all their ships off the board in the first round, then fine. Do that. But that opens up the opportunity for one or both of them to not set their ship flying off the board so that they're guaranteed the win. And if they both keep a ship or two from flying off the board because they don't want to lose out on that first place swag, then boom. We've got a game.

Edited by Derpzilla88

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3 hours ago, NervousSam said:

Everyone needs to read this.

Tournament Regulations.

3rd and 4th place are already eliminated, they can't enter back into the tournament. The 2 finalist are only beholden to each other, not the rest of the field or the spectators. All of this talk of DQing people isn't based in the rules and is based on people's emotions and opinions. 

Based on the actual rules, you are initially correct: Players who do not appear for a round in which they are scheduled to play are dropped from the tournament, not Disqualified. Page 13 of the Tournament Rules says:

Quote

If a player no longer wishes to continue playing, he or she can notify the organizer of their intent.

The organizer will avoid pairing him or her in future rounds by dropping them from the

tournament. Players are also dropped if they do not appear for a round in which they are paired

within a reasonable time limit, or if they are no longer able to play for another reason. Players

can request that the organizer allow them to rejoin an event from which they were dropped, being

assigned an unpaired loss for each round they did not attend. Disqualified players are removed

from the tournament, and cannot rejoin.

So if the final two players in a tournament both decide that they do not wish to play the final round, they will both be dropped. Since they have dropped, and so no longer participating in the tournament, I would say that they are not eligible for any of the rewards for making the final two, especially since they technically dropped in between rounds and didn't actually "make" the final two.

Now, if the two players decide to start the game and then proceed to do something the would get them DQ'd, like slow play or Unsporting Conduct, it would be totally within the rules to DQ them both, especially because "The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct."

The follow on to this is that if the organizer does not like that the final two players don't want to play the final round, the organizer is fully within their rights (and fully supported by the rules) to DQ them without allowing them to drop.

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1 hour ago, Nspace said:

Based on the actual rules, you are initially correct: Players who do not appear for a round in which they are scheduled to play are dropped from the tournament, not Disqualified. Page 13 of the Tournament Rules says:

So if the final two players in a tournament both decide that they do not wish to play the final round, they will both be dropped. Since they have dropped, and so no longer participating in the tournament, I would say that they are not eligible for any of the rewards for making the final two, especially since they technically dropped in between rounds and didn't actually "make" the final two.

Now, if the two players decide to start the game and then proceed to do something the would get them DQ'd, like slow play or Unsporting Conduct, it would be totally within the rules to DQ them both, especially because "The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct."

The follow on to this is that if the organizer does not like that the final two players don't want to play the final round, the organizer is fully within their rights (and fully supported by the rules) to DQ them without allowing them to drop.

 I'm genuinely saddened by your comments, you claim that any situation where the players don’t do exactly what you want them to do, will get them DQ'ed. You talk as if they owe you or the rest of the tournament players some entertainment by playing the last game.

 

They made the final, they earned the rewards that comes with being the last 2 players in the event. That's how it works.

 

The fact that there is no definition of "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" in the rules and that the rules give the organizer Carte Blanche to remove players for "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is really dangerous. Being able to kick a player from an event for any reason as long as the TO determines that it falls under their personal view of "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is an exceedingly powerful position to be in and is open to be abused.

 

When this sort of ruling is implemented it needs to be advertised well in advance of the event and be made clear that should players make the elim rounds they are expected to complete all matches or forfeit any prizes they would win. I've been to events with these rules, and there have been several players that don’t turn up because they have family commitments in the evening, essentially barring these players from playing in these events.

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21 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

 I'm genuinely saddened by your comments, you claim that any situation where the players don’t do exactly what you want them to do, will get them DQ'ed. You talk as if they owe you or the rest of the tournament players some entertainment by playing the last game.

I'm not claiming anything, I'm pointing out what the rules say, with some logical inference about the status of players after they drop. There are consequences for both the player actions and the organizer actions, some of them immediate (not getting any rewards due to dropping, possibly angry organizer or other players) and some of them more long term (loss of trust of the player(s) and/or the organizer, possible store or tournament bans or boycotts). The rules don't speak to anyone "owing" anybody anything (including the players) and they don't require a final match, but they do say explicitly what happens when players no longer want to play.

My personal feelings on the subject is that the final two players really should do everything in their power to play the final match or withdraw before they play the semifinal match. If they are unwilling or unable to do that, they should be prepared to deal with the fallout.

40 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

 They made the final, they earned the rewards that comes with being the last 2 players in the event. That's how it works.

This is incorrect though. They don't earn the rewards that comes with being the last 2 players in the event until the final match is complete and the final rankings are determined. If they don't even start the match (and so are dropped) or are DQ'd before the match is final, they won't be part of the final rankings and, by the rules, will not actually be part of the tournament any longer. If they are no longer part of the tournament, how can they have any claim on any of the rewards?

49 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

 The fact that there is no definition of "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" in the rules and that the rules give the organizer Carte Blanche to remove players for "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is really dangerous. Being able to kick a player from an event for any reason as long as the TO determines that it falls under their personal view of "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is an exceedingly powerful position to be in and is open to be abused.

I totally agree with you here. I understand the reasoning behind it and the need for flexibility to cover all sorts of edge case and unexpected things and react appropriately (or not as the case may be), but I don't like the potential for abuse. Really though, the only protection the players have is that unfair or abusive behavior by an organizer will be talked about far and wide in the x-wing community, including sending reports to FFG( as they do care about their more formal organized events).

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11 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

I believe the rules already cover this under "final Salvo". If you don't want to play it out you can always just Salvo.

Except that they can only Final Salvo if, at the end of the game, both players have the same score.

If you don't play the game, you can't Final Salvo. If you could Final Salvo instead of playing a game, then every round in a tournament could be resolved without anyone playing actually playing.

Edited by Derpzilla88

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