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brunoamorim13

Final Table and players won't play

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Ok, first, everyone have the right to drop, no one can be forced to play. This is bullying... If someone make top 8, he can wait the top 8 to start and concede, you don't bring up the 9th person... This is done only when the top 8 is still not started:

"If a player drops from the tournament after single elimination rounds begin, that player’s current opponent—or next opponent, if the player drops between rounds—receives a bye for the round."

"If a player qualified for a standings-based cut drops from the tournament before any games are played during the next stage of the tournament, the next highest ranking player should be added to the cut as the lowest ranked player in the cut."

You always have the right to take your current prize and go home, sorry for the one that ended up 9th, this is disapointing, but the 8th player got to top 8 and he deserve his prize. Not caring for the top position is not a reason to be bullied...

For the collusion about deciding who win a top 8 match, again I fail to see where in tournament regulation it is said to be DQ for each of them...

Again everyone have the right to stop playing... if two opponents say they are happy to just get their current prize and go home.... what are you supposed to do !?! If you won your top 4 match and you are now top 2, why suddently you don't have the right to drop from the tournament... You played your top 4, you won, you get the prize associated with being top 2.

Not everyone want the top prize... sometime you just want prize X that happen to be top 4 and you don't care for the rest... but what, because you don't want to play the top 4 match you should forfeit the prize that come from ending up top 4 !?!??!!

I want the regional template, if I ever get to top 8, and win the top 8 match I will conceide the top 4 match and go home with my template. Sorry for the guy I beat in top 8, he just had to win to get the template.

Edited by muribundi

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1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

Top 16 cut ... he'd already won his first cut game ... should it have gone to the guy who lost the top 16 game?

AH, issed that.  No, in that context, I think this was done correctly - the onus then falls on the player to only stay for the cut if they're actulaly intending to play right through.

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7 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Explain how.

Shifting the burden of proof. Yours is the claim they are the same. I'm not at liberty to explain your point for you.

7 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

What makes your statement any more valid than mine?

The validity of the statements is totally irrelevant to whether they are related in any way. They could both be totally valid (or just equally valid) and still not be in any way related.

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2 hours ago, muribundi said:

Not caring for the top position is not a reason to be bullied...

And this is basically what is being discussed here.

Those saying the game ought to be stripped from the players are like playground bullies trying to shame people just for holding different (and perfectly legitimate) thoughts, perceptions, and ideals.

I do not and will not tolerate this in any game.

Edited by InquisitorM

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Just to throw my two cents into the ring, I'd vote for a DQ on both. Part of the tournament structure is endurance. Like in poker, or any other intellectually intense competition, part of "getting good" is being resilient mentally through the event. XWing isn't just a competition between lists, it's a competition between players skill with some RNG tossed in for salt.

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1 hour ago, JasonCole said:

Just to throw my two cents into the ring, I'd vote for a DQ on both. Part of the tournament structure is endurance. Like in poker, or any other intellectually intense competition, part of "getting good" is being resilient mentally through the event. XWing isn't just a competition between lists, it's a competition between players skill with some RNG tossed in for salt.

Funny you mention poker.  For decades, before it got popular and put on TV, the World Series of Poker final table often ended with the final few players just splitting the pot.  At least, that's what I recall the casters for it saying a few years back.  Folks care too much these days, but the history is still there.

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It happen in MT:G, it happen in poker, it happen in anygame there is prize money on the line that is not played professionally...

MT:G they often play only for the trophy and split the pot...

Why is it never seen in professional sport, because there is more on the line then money... in fact most often then not there is no money on the line... Winning the super bowl mean something... winning the X-Wing regional mean nothing, I'm more then happy to go home with my Template or Dice and let anyone else battle it out...

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Fellow TO here,

I had something similar happen at a tournament recently. In a nut shell... we left it up to the store owner and he told them that if they didn't want to play it out in a genuine match, they would need to drop and let the players they beat play for the top spot/prizes. Taking the easy way out with a dice roll is disrespectful to everyone who played and especially to those who put in the time and money to organize the event. 

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2 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

disrespectful to everyone who played and especially to those who put in the time and money to organize the event. 

Not to mention anyone who spent time and money to travel to participate.

I do like leaving it up to the organizer/store owner. it's their event and business's reputation on the line to a degree.

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Okay.... so then if the threat of being DQed is pressed... then the two of them could just set down rocks, deploy ships, put dials down, and fly everything off the board (assuming they both had a PS 10 Nym or PS 11 Fenn like so many "high level" players do these days).

Now they final salvo within the first 5 minutes and dice quickly determine the outcome anyway.

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2 hours ago, Sephlar said:

Okay.... so then if the threat of being DQed is pressed... then the two of them could just set down rocks, deploy ships, put dials down, and fly everything off the board (assuming they both had a PS 10 Nym or PS 11 Fenn like so many "high level" players do these days).

Now they final salvo within the first 5 minutes and dice quickly determine the outcome anyway.

That's covered by the "Unsporting Conduct" rule. It's "Collusion to manipulate score".

Up to the judge if he wants to enforce it or not of course but it is within his power to do so.

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3 hours ago, Sephlar said:

Okay.... so then if the threat of being DQed is pressed... then the two of them could just set down rocks, deploy ships, put dials down, and fly everything off the board (assuming they both had a PS 10 Nym or PS 11 Fenn like so many "high level" players do these days).

Now they final salvo within the first 5 minutes and dice quickly determine the outcome anyway.

And promptly become pariahs within their local gaming community for being, frankly, complete dicks. 

It's an insult to everyone else who played on the day for the two people who made it to the final to all of a sudden be a bit tired and not want to play.  There are other people who did want to play and tried their best to get there.

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I feel like I should clarify my position a little...

1) I believe that the players agreeing to a draw is collusion. Agreeing to a final salvo isn't *as* bad, but it's **** close.
2) If you're tired, that's fine. But drop before or at the cut to move other players up. If you aren't going to go all the way, then go home.
3) If you go into the cut, you know what's ahead. See #2.

This is completely hypothetical, I know.

 

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2 hours ago, StevenO said:

It's threads like this which really discourage me from tournament play.

There's nothing wrong with tournament play mate.  I've played almost always for sheep stations (i.e. even our regular night at our FLGS had vouchers on the line) but yet never have had a bad experience in the 2+ years Ive been playing.

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6 hours ago, StevenO said:

It's threads like this which really discourage me from tournament play.

Don't base your expectations on a 'worst case' forum thread!

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Do what I do and never make the cut anyway.

Pretty much this :D

To be more on-topic, I know of a couple of games where the players didn't play. Neither were in a final. In one, a dad conceded so his son progressed to the semi-final. In the other, 2 brothers flying the same lists had practiced against one another repeatedly and the outcome almost always came down to the dice, so they Final Salvo'ed so whoever won would be fresher for the final of a Regional.

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8 hours ago, StevenO said:

It's threads like this which really discourage me from tournament play.

I wouldn't be discouraged at all. I've been to dozens of tournaments in the last 3 years and I've never encountered a situation like this. It's extremely rare and I think it's better to discuss things as we are now to establish some ground rules so if the situation does arise again TOs have something to refer to.

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I don't understand: if both players agree not ot play the final what has it to do with you?

Other players had the chance to be in the final but lost. SO they have nothing to complain.

It would be worse if players drop during the tournament, after having beaten some players.

But in the final...there are only two players. What ever they cvhoose it is not anyone's business.

IMHO... 

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Having been in this position several times (exhausted, need to be somewhere else, not going to enjoy playing the game, not going to play a good game etc.) I don't see what the issue is? The two players earned their way to the final table and if they are happy to final salvo for the top prize why do you care? I'm sure the store owner would like to go home too.

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30 minutes ago, toffolone said:

I don't understand: if both players agree not ot play the final what has it to do with you?

Other players had the chance to be in the final but lost. SO they have nothing to complain.

It would be worse if players drop during the tournament, after having beaten some players.

But in the final...there are only two players. What ever they choose it is not anyone's business.

IMHO... 

Exactly.

 

14 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

It's an insult to everyone else who played on the day for the two people who made it to the final to all of a sudden be a bit tired and not want to play.  There are other people who did want to play and tried their best to get there.

This is the kind of concept that has led to kindergarten graduations and every body gets a trophy t-ball tournaments.

It's only "insulting" if one chooses to be insulted. IF their are people who tried there best to get there and finished 3rd or 4th... guess what... they finished 3rd and 4th. Their day is over. They failed to reach the final.

It's one thing if there is "collusion" to manipulate the tournament results PRIOR to the final game. This is why the collusion rules were introduced in the first place. Setting up for the cut for example and a person is left just out of the cut because of two 6-0 players decided to take a draw (the old system) ... I understand how that is collusion and I have no problem with FFG or a tournament organizer wanted to eliminate that kind of situation... But in the final game it is THEIR GAME now. No one else is left in the tournament except the two of them. Everyone else has been eliminated.
 

Edited by Sephlar

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14 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Having been in this position several times (exhausted, need to be somewhere else, not going to enjoy playing the game, not going to play a good game etc.) I don't see what the issue is? The two players earned their way to the final table and if they are happy to final salvo for the top prize why do you care? I'm sure the store owner would like to go home too.

Based on some in this thread, I should DQ your exhausted mush-brain next time :P

--

But in all seriousness, I agree with @Transmogrifier. These players earned their way to the top table. If they've made it through 6+ rounds of X-Wing (especially if done all in one day) they're mentally fried. If they are threatened with being DQ'd if they don't play the final game...well firstly how is that fun for anyone? And secondly, what's to stop either player from just flying off the board edge or, after set up, declaring that s/he concedes the match? Don't be sore losers, just because you didn't make the cut doesn't mean you should force those that did to play if they're mentally exhausted and just want to be done. Once it becomes no longer fun to play another round, it's time to be done - this is a game after all and we should be playing it for fun/enjoyment...

Personally, I'm at events to play - if I make it to the final I'm playing if I can but fully understand if the other player is burnt out or has a toddler s/he'd like to get home to after a very long day of X-Wing and thus would rather just be done. Final salvo isn't my personal preference for resolving the final match, but I'd accept it out of compassion for my HUMAN opponent...

I'd be appalled if a TO DQ hammered the top 2 because they refused to play...

EDIT: Forget the tournament rules and regulations as written...at this stage of the competition just be a reasonable, sensible, compassionate, and understanding human being...or at the very least don't be a d...

Edited by ZealuxMyr

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