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RufusDaMan

Yet another Punisher fix thread

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O hai. It's that time of the week again.

 

The Punisher is nowhere near close to the power level of the Scurrg or the K-wing. This is my answer to that.

But before anyone starts complaining about "another fix thread"... Just don't. FFG could do a much better job at this. This is unacceptable. If you don't enjoy these topics, don't open them. I for one, do. You don't have to be here. Go and find yourself another thread. Bye.

With that out of the way, let's get this party started. But before we get to fixin', we need to know what's wrong. There are many ideas here on how to fix the Punisher, but I don't think they have the right goals in mind.

 

What IS the Punisher, this lovely BBB, capturing the hearts of so many (Okay, we may not be plentiful, but we are loud). What can be said about this ship that makes it stand out? What benefits does it have over the other two heavy bombers?

It has the Boost action, which is not something you often see on the heavier ships. Sadly, since it relies on its secondary weapons to deal damage, which in turn rely on actions, this action is often neglected. The lack of an EPT causes this problem to be harder to overcome, so the only possible way for the Punisher to use its native Boost without outside help is to use reveal bombs.

It can equip several TIE only upgrades, many of them provide great benefit to the Punisher.... Sadly, these "options" don't serve to make the Punisher excel in a certain field, as much as they turn it passable in one of them. Twin Ion Engine MK II turns its poor dial into mediocre, LWF makes its poor defense tolerable. Even the other modifications like LRS, Autothrusters, and GC feel like they don't bring up the ship to speed.

It is relatively cheap, having the lowest cost of all heavy bombers. It is 2 points cheaper than the equivalent K-Wing, and 4* points cheaper than the Scurrg. Sadly, this price difference is nowhere near close to the value difference between these ships. Both the Scurrg and the K-Wing have better distribution of Shields/Hull, (Scurrg has even more in total), both have turrets and crew, and the Scurrg has an extra attack dice, while the K-Wing has a PWT. Not to mention, the Punisher arguably has the worst dial of them all. The value provided by these things multiplies the gap between the efficiency of these ships.

(*Estimated)

All in all, not even counting pilots, there is a huge discrepancy between these ships. The Punisher is the least mobile**, least damaging heavy bomber with the least utility, and a very limited tool set. So let's fix that!

(**Excl. named pilots. Talking about the ship here)

 

z3A5pGp.jpg

A 0 point title that does 2 things, providing the ship with a unique role. The TIE IT will want to mash into your face, high speed, and joust you. Its high HP and boosted defenses in its front arc could make for a dangerous foe to face head on. It really needs the action economy, and now that 5 beautiful engines will get you a bang for your buck. Also, they need their arc to do damage, so the extra mobility is always welcome.

khWjHk6.jpg

But... they need an EPT. Not only this will allow them to take Ruthlessness, (which should be mandatory on any imperial ship), but opens up actually viable builds with the ship. PTL, Twin Ion Engine will allow you to take 2 actions and clear stress. For example.

QttQLJ7.jpg

 

And while we are at it... Let's get creative with bombing. You have to discard this, but Tomax Bren loves it. Even if you are not a dedicated bomber, but you need to put that one bomb down, this will help you out greatly.

tuZy0bq.jpg

This system slot helps these ships to PUNISH, as they were designed to, but can be used on Advanced-s as well for devastating missile salvo. Redline likes this better than FCS anyway.

i5VwZ9W.jpg

Don't you just hate when you have an extra torpedo slot, and you already took EM? Well, hate it no more! This card will help a lot of other ships like X-Wings, (Poe will be even better.) U-Wings, Bombers, Y-Wings, etc. In this age of missiles, we need countermeasures. It is flavorful, it is good, and frankly, torpedo slots need all the help they can get. Also, hail the Gunboat.

hZZRuR1.jpg

So yeah. I know it looks scary, but the worst offender I could think of is 5 Scimitars with LRS, which is not so atrocious because of the lack of double mod, and most likely one of them dies before doing anything. Besides, Y-Wings will love this. So Will B-Wings with FCS. Revitalize older ships. (Also, Hail Missileboat!)

 

And now: Pilots

9zujEAK.jpg

 

You know she had to come. She will be an amazing bomber, and she can even use cruise missiles better. Plus its a really fun ability. The more Juno.

 

HtPnvEL.jpg

 

This is a powerful ability that fits with his lore quite well. Loads of fun with Cluster Missiles. With the cards in here, either he, Redline, or Juno can be a really powerful ace.

 

 

Link with all the cards: https://imgur.com/a/a81g8

 

 

Whatcha guys think?

 

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These all seem pretty well rounded and fair. The closest to being potentially too strong is the sensor, but it comes at the cost of FCS or Adv Sensors so thats a fair trade.

Also i praise you for finding ways to fix the punisher that ISNT
A) Make it fire twice! Even if it has to be splitfire!
B) Make it cheaper!
C) Give it free ExtraMuns or Reload!

Firing twice would either lead to gamebreaking shenanigans being able to splitfire harpoons or be dead weight because the punisher still goes poof in a heartbeat anyway
Making it cheaper steps on Bomber toes, so i'd rather make it worth its current 35-42pt range than bring it down 6pts.
Free ExtraMuns or Reload has same issue as the first...punisher goes poof LONG before it could utilize all those shots anyway.

A concept i had for a new Punisher pilot was "Vengeance" 27pts PS7 - When you suffer 1 or more damage, place a Critical Hit token on this ship card. When attacking, you may reroll 1 die or mod 1 focus result to a hit for each Critical Hit token on this ship card. If you destroy a ship, remove all Critical Hit tokens
Basically i tried to make a pun out of the "Punisher" title - he punishes you for hitting him....

Edited by Vineheart01

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10 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

These all seem pretty well rounded and fair. The closest to being potentially too strong is the sensor, but it comes at the cost of FCS or Adv Sensors so thats a fair trade.

Also i praise you for finding ways to fix the punisher that ISNT
A) Make it fire twice! Even if it has to be splitfire!
B) Make it cheaper!
C) Give it free ExtraMuns or Reload!

Firing twice would either lead to gamebreaking shenanigans being able to splitfire harpoons or be dead weight because the punisher still goes poof in a heartbeat anyway
Making it cheaper steps on Bomber toes, so i'd rather make it worth its current 35-42pt range than bring it down 6pts.
Free ExtraMuns or Reload has same issue as the first...punisher goes poof LONG before it could utilize all those shots anyway.

 

Yeah that was the idea.

I also dislike the idea of adding several mods, while it would make the Punisher better, but it has been done (Interceptor, Vaksai and now it seems X-wing and U-wing.) More importantly, it would remove the choices provided by those options.

With these cards, all of these mods make sense, and give their benefit fully. You actually have to make choices.

LWF allows for a very survivable jouster, that suffers a lot from being arc-dodged - this is the type of ship it should be. Along with the Guidance System, it provides with an interesting dynamic of play. "Dodge this ship, or suffer for it". It rewards good play both for you and your opponent.
GC Really puts the emphasis on attack. It synergizes with Guidance Systems, and with the added benefit of an EPT Redline or Nas Ghent become truly beastly.
TIE MK II. Is great for opening up the dial for PTL, allowing you to get your mods, especially with the free boost thrown in there by the title. It becomes a vastly more maneuverable ship, but not at the level of a traditional arc dodger. This is a great all-around way to build this ship.
 

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23 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

These all seem pretty well rounded and fair. The closest to being potentially too strong is the sensor, but it comes at the cost of FCS or Adv Sensors so thats a fair trade.

Also i praise you for finding ways to fix the punisher that ISNT
A) Make it fire twice! Even if it has to be splitfire!
B) Make it cheaper!
C) Give it free ExtraMuns or Reload!

Firing twice would either lead to gamebreaking shenanigans being able to splitfire harpoons or be dead weight because the punisher still goes poof in a heartbeat anyway
Making it cheaper steps on Bomber toes, so i'd rather make it worth its current 35-42pt range than bring it down 6pts.
Free ExtraMuns or Reload has same issue as the first...punisher goes poof LONG before it could utilize all those shots anyway.

A concept i had for a new Punisher pilot was "Vengeance" 27pts PS7 - When you suffer 1 or more damage, place a Critical Hit token on this ship card. When attacking, you may reroll 1 die or mod 1 focus result to a hit for each Critical Hit token on this ship card. If you destroy a ship, remove all Critical Hit tokens
Basically i tried to make a pun out of the "Punisher" title - he punishes you for hitting him....

I don't think I like the add an evade if attacker is in your firing arc. That seems very strong, and not very fluffy. What about swapping that out for' when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker add an evade die' this helps buff lower ps pilots as they won't have spent their target locks and would couple nicely with FCS on high PS pilots ( not that the Punisher has many high PS pilots)

Adding an evade is better than adding two evade die, most of the time, as Punisher rarely focus, and if they do its because either they have unguided rockets or long range sensors.

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3 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

I don't think I like the add an evade if attacker is in your firing arc. That seems very strong, and not very fluffy. What about swapping that out for' when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker add an evade die' this helps buff lower ps pilots as they won't have spent their target locks and would couple nicely with FCS on high PS pilots ( not that the Punisher has many high PS pilots)

Adding an evade is better than adding two evade die, most of the time, as Punisher rarely focus, and if they do its because either they have unguided rockets or long range sensors.

It supposed to have heavy armor that survives frontal assault. It is a ship when they send forward to destroy things when larger ships (epic scale) are not available. Having strong frontal defense is very much in this ship's image, and helps it out in its in game weakness: it dies too early.

It is also limited by the relative low PS of the pilots, and their crappy dial. They can be dodged easily.

 

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Kinda hard to say something isnt fluffy if you only look at the game in question and not the ship origin.

Its a base bomber, designed to dive down into areas Stardestroyers couldnt reach either due to size or the amount of defenses in the way and hit them hard. Its referenced several times to have heavier armor than usual TIEs, sacrificing its FTL capabilities in the process. If any ship deserves a pseudo-reinforce, its the punisher. Sacrificing the ability to "reinforce" its butt for the bonus of not using an action is fine by me, since it almost always dies in the joust anyway not in the aftermath

Besides its also the only Heavy Bomber in the game that has 0 "escape vectors" to avoid damage due to lack of a turret. If it determines it needs to vacate the premises, it wont do any damage and quite possibly wont even get away, while the other two have turrets.

Edited by Vineheart01

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So many options.

Decoy Flares I love.  So much.

Punishers getting a free Boost might be extreme.  Just putting that, LWF, and Accuracy Corrector would make a pretty reasonable efficiency ship.  I feel like the Boost should be conditioned on something.  Or "after you perform a Boost action, you may perform a free action.  Then receive one stress."  Basically a boost-only PTL.  With the mediocre greens of a Punisher, you probably couldn't do it every turn, but any time you want to Boost and do something else, you can.  You'd also be able to Boost into a bomb drop.

///

Here's my current idea; Massive Ordnance Volley (title).  "When performing a torpedo or missile attack, add 1 [hit] result.  After performing a secondary weapon attack, you must discard 1 torpedo, missile upgrade.  If you do not, deal a face-up [down] damage card to your ship."  It might need to adjust point costs somehow, I'm not sure.

The last bit about the faceup card probably wouldn't happen that often in reality.  In practice, what I see happening is a Punisher would equip Extra Munitions, then discard the ordnance token from EM on the first attack, and on a second attack discard EM after discarding the initial missile.  The premise is that you're firing lots of warheads at once, but it'd probably be broken to perform two missile or torpedo attacks in the same turn.  So crank up each individual attack from secondary weapons.  It'll work great with Cluster Missiles in particular, but really, any missile or torpedo likes an extra hit.

It'd work awesome with those Flares, too.  Toss those out instead of real missile and torpedo upgrades.

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2 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Along the lines of the flares, I think a cheap bomb that gives an evade token upon discard would work.   

A bomb, actually probe droid, that attaches to obstacles and provides free target locks to allied ships could be a great asset as well.

 

Non damaging deployable items are a mostly unexplored designspace for sure!

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Actually i like the idea of a nondamage deployable.

Something like this:

Targeting Droids
Cost: 2pts
Slot: Bomb
Text: ACTION: Discard this card and assign a Targeting Droid token to an obstacle at Range 1.
Targeting Droid Rules: If an enemy ship ends their maneuver within R1 of an obstacle with a Targeting Droid on it, one friendly ship may acquire a targetlock on that ship.

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Apologies for any typos, my laptop is out of commission right now.

I brought up a fix a while ago for B wings, but I think when the forums changed over to Asmodee it got lost. It seems very applicable to the punisher though.

 

Semi-Active Radar System

System - 0 pts

When attacking with a torpedo, you may add a hit result when attacking a large ship. Additionally, if attacking a ship with 1 agility or lower, you may convert a result to a crit.

Edited by rabid1903

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precision bombing makes me want to die, please put that idea in the bin. The others are fine, but jesus **** no I'd like to actually fly Soontir for once, and not getall 3 cluster mines dropped on my face before I can react.

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Sorry, my feedback got left off.

I love the pilots you suggested, I really really do. Not a fan of your non title upgrades as much though. They just don't quite sit right, and I can't put my finger on it.

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5 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Along the lines of the flares, I think a cheap bomb that gives an evade token upon discard would work.   

A bomb, actually probe droid, that attaches to obstacles and provides free target locks to allied ships could be a great asset as well.

 

Hey a use for those satellite tokens.

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3 hours ago, jimmius said:

precision bombing makes me want to die, please put that idea in the bin. The others are fine, but jesus **** no I'd like to actually fly Soontir for once, and not getall 3 cluster mines dropped on my face before I can react.

Maybe using only the range 1 movement template? Precision bombing kinda reminds me of the highjinks that Crimson Specialist can pull off.

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16 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

 

Whatcha guys think?

 

It won't let me give you 2 "likes."

15 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

I don't think I like the add an evade if attacker is in your firing arc. That seems very strong, and not very fluffy. What about swapping that out for' when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker add an evade die' this helps buff lower ps pilots as they won't have spent their target locks and would couple nicely with FCS on high PS pilots ( not that the Punisher has many high PS pilots)

Adding an evade is better than adding two evade die, most of the time, as Punisher rarely focus, and if they do its because either they have unguided rockets or long range sensors.

See below.

15 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

It supposed to have heavy armor that survives frontal assault. It is a ship when they send forward to destroy things when larger ships (epic scale) are not available. Having strong frontal defense is very much in this ship's image, and helps it out in its in game weakness: it dies too early.

It is also limited by the relative low PS of the pilots, and their crappy dial. They can be dodged easily.

 

I like this.  In today's game, any time you fly an arc locked ship well enough to get shots off within your arc you deserve a reward of some kind.  Having a pseudo reinforce for those times on a 1 agility ship that is probably 3-5 points over costed sounds about right.

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16 minutes ago, jimmius said:

reinforce is the single worst thing in the game and I and any other sane person should be against giving it to any other ships

This isn't even close to reinforce. It can only be applied to the front arc, and a 85 degree arc at that.

Also, PWT-s are far worse. At least reinforce cares about arcs and positioning.

 

Reinforce doesn't remove a core element of the gameplay, it just rewards it.


I tested this. It isn't a problem at all. It is really easy to work around it.

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3 hours ago, pickirk01 said:

In today's game, any time you fly an arc locked ship well enough to get shots off within your arc you deserve a reward of some kind. 

Yeah it’s call ordnance, specifically Harpoons.  Cannons work too.

oh, you wanted something like an across the board like a bonus to classic jousters?  Nope sorry.

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These are all terrific, fun ideas to bring the Punisher up to speed, but I do agree that Precision Bombing might be a little much.

Flares are amazing simply because anyone with a torp slot can take it.

Despite all this I still think it makes sense to have the Reload action.

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If anything the Bomber needs both a system slot and reload, at 0 pts.

the punisher deserves a free system upgrade, punisher only, that allows TLs at any range, Reroll on one blank for ordnance, and free focus on gaining a TL.

and -2 point deduction.  Maybe.

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