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ElSuave

First Flames - Disciples of the Void Preview

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16 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

It is worth mentioning that dishonoring Haughty shuts this down.

That’s why I said “impossible to lose”, not “auto win” :P It surely makes it “impossible to win for your adversary”

Even dishonoring Haughty just makes the conflict go to 0 skill for both sides, so nobody loses. 

The only way is send him home. Or CtM him. 

Edited by Tabris2k

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16 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

That’s why I said “impossible to lose”, not “auto win” :P It surely makes it “impossible to win for your adversary”

Even dishonoring Haughty just makes the conflict go to 0 skill for both sides, so nobody loses. 

The only way is send him home. Or CtM him. 

In this case Political Favour can be the difference maker as the +1 still applies as long as you have a character in the conflict.

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10 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

In this case Political Favour can be the difference maker as the +1 still applies as long as you have a character in the conflict.

Ooooh, I didn’t even thought about the Imperial Favor, but you’re right. And it’s not like is difficult for the Phoenix to have the Favor...

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I actually think Tadaka is really good, while granted in a very non-obvious sort of way.

-He makes the mantras genuinely useful

-He can be a real workhorse in a fate control monk build

-When paired with the jade masterpiece he forces opponents into choosing between a rock and a hard place

-The emo stone takes out the majority of his downside

-He alleviates some of the linchpin pressure on the emo stone in fate control builds

-He has a good statline that we frankly needed

-He forces the game into heavy mind games, which the other clans are less likely to be suited to play

Also, frankly, he HAD to be a double-edged sword, because without the opponent being able to use it too, he'd be CRAZY BROKEN, and as it stands, in the right sort of build you will rarely even be bothered by the downside. My only issue with him is that he will be difficult for most people to learn to pilot well, playing with a deck built for him WILL be playing on hard mode, but he turns it into hard mode for both players, but the difference is, we designed the deck explicitly to exploit the fact. He will NOT be a game changer for the dragon, he will frustrate a LOT of players on BOTH sides of the board, and he will NOT be an auto-include in the vast majority of our decks.

The chess-like play/counter-play aspect of l5r is constantly in play, it is like a dance with lots of back and forth and the players moving each other around the dance floor; Tadaka changes the rhythm of the music, he changes the type of dance we're doing, and when you build for him and have learned the skills to pilot him properly, that means YOU have practiced doing that style of dance to that specific song, and that means you can lead your opponent into tripping over their own feet, you can lead them into a corner, you can leave them in your dust, etc. Tadaka isn't an I win button, but when used properly he can control the flow of the game.

Of course, all this also means that when he ISN'T used properly he is an extreme hindrance, so YMMV is extremely applicable here, he likely won't see a TON of play, but when players do use him, build for him, and go in with both eyes wide open, he will shine.

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You realize what that Dragon Monk does right?  If you can dictate what element your opponent is attacking with then all of a sudden those Mantras are much much easier to play.  Also he synergizes with the fate/ring manipulation cards.  If splashing Phoenix you can take the Phoenix monk conflict character that fetches Kiho as well.  I think this pack is going to really help the monk deck for Dragon.

Also yes I agree the Dragon good stuff deck doesn't need help.  The monk one certainly does need all the help it can get.

edit: Ninja-ed :)

Edited by phillos

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@psychie Dude, you keep saying Tadaka. It’s not Tadaka. It’s Tadakatsu. 

Tadaka is the Phoenix Elemental Master of Earth, which was semi-previewed when the Clan Pack was first announced. So yeah, he’s ours, keep your dragon paws away from him!

... Sorry for the nitpick. 

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3 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

@psychie Dude, you keep saying Tadaka. It’s not Tadaka. It’s Tadakatsu. 

Tadaka is the Phoenix Elemental Master of Earth, which was semi-previewed when the Clan Pack was first announced. So yeah, he’s ours, keep your dragon paws away from him!

... Sorry for the nitpick. 

Huh, you're right, my bad, sorry, too many similar names I guess.

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7 hours ago, phillos said:

You realize what that Dragon Monk does right?  If you can dictate what element your opponent is attacking with then all of a sudden those Mantras are much much easier to play.  Also he synergizes with the fate/ring manipulation cards.  If splashing Phoenix you can take the Phoenix monk conflict character that fetches Kiho as well.  I think this pack is going to really help the monk deck for Dragon.

Also yes I agree the Dragon good stuff deck doesn't need help.  The monk one certainly does need all the help it can get.

edit: Ninja-ed :)

@phillos I’m sorry, but I honestly think that you are downgrading the fact that YOUR OPPONENT gets to benefit as well from this character. This is seriously troubling in the early game, and even more so in the mid to late game. This monk’s effects are overly powerful FOR YOUR OPPONENT more than your own forces.... heck, YOU will pay for him out of your own pocket, while your opponent can circumstantially benefit from his effect at leisure. The blowback cannot be fun; I don’t know how we are skimming through this and not assigning it any importance. ?

I can’t justify being able to fire off a few Mantra cards for bringing this character into play. He is a liability on my Dragon side, more so if I don’t have said Mantra cards in hand, his ability is on the defense which takes away from the aggressive nature/design of Dragon (please tell me that Dragon players commonly plan to sit back and win a “defensive” match), and he is at best in the same pool of the Ascetic (sp?) Visionary and the Itinerant...... and how many of those cards do Dragon players have in their deck? ?

Practically everything about this character is wrong, wrong, wrong in my book. The art on the card is pretty, but the card isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. And I’m trying to moderate myself so I don’t come off sounding harsh here concerning this monk... ?

 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

@phillos I’m sorry, but I honestly think that you are downgrading the fact that YOUR OPPONENT gets to benefit as well from this character. This is seriously troubling in the early game, and even more so in the mid to late game. This monk’s effects are overly powerful FOR YOUR OPPONENT more than your own forces.... heck, YOU will pay for him out of your own pocket, while your opponent can circumstantially benefit from his effect at leisure. The blowback cannot be fun; I don’t know how we are skimming through this and not assigning it any importance. ?

I can’t justify being able to fire off a few Mantra cards for bringing this character into play. He is a liability on my Dragon side, more so if I don’t have said Mantra cards in hand, his ability is on the defense which takes away from the aggressive nature/design of Dragon (please tell me that Dragon players commonly plan to sit back and win a “defensive” match), and he is at best in the same pool of the Ascetic (sp?) Visionary and the Itinerant...... and how many of those cards do Dragon players have in their deck? ?

Practically everything about this character is wrong, wrong, wrong in my book. The art on the card is pretty, but the card isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. And I’m trying to moderate myself so I don’t come off sounding harsh here concerning this monk... ?

 

 

 

While I agree with you that he is bad in the competitive Dragon goodstuff deck, I personally am eager to play him in a dedicated Monk deck. The synergy with the monk attachments, mantras and other monk characters is actually very strong. The only problem is, that the deck is probably not there yet.

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11 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

So, does Secluded Shrine work with Know the World? That could be used for easy fate grabbing even before the first conflict...

My guess is no, because you are only considered to have the ring and don't actually have the ring. Therefore you can't swap it away.

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The new role is clearly a way to balance the other clans giving access to the phoenix cards while the other cla packs do not come out, increasing the possibility of deckbuilding, but if it will replace the keepers / seekers it may not help that much.

At the same time I hope there are not as many strong cards in the pack to make characters like the spoiled scorpion shugenja become really relevant.

My concern is if they do not launch the other clan packs in sequence, giving a very large gap as in the GoT maybe some clans that have little benefit with the phoenix splash will have the deckbuild very restricted against a strong meta.

Looking forward to see all the other clan cards in this pack.

Edited by L5RBr

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9 hours ago, LordBlunt said:

@phillos I’m sorry, but I honestly think that you are downgrading the fact that YOUR OPPONENT gets to benefit as well from this character. This is seriously troubling in the early game, and even more so in the mid to late game. This monk’s effects are overly powerful FOR YOUR OPPONENT more than your own forces.... heck, YOU will pay for him out of your own pocket, while your opponent can circumstantially benefit from his effect at leisure. The blowback cannot be fun; I don’t know how we are skimming through this and not assigning it any importance. ?

I can’t justify being able to fire off a few Mantra cards for bringing this character into play. He is a liability on my Dragon side, more so if I don’t have said Mantra cards in hand, his ability is on the defense which takes away from the aggressive nature/design of Dragon (please tell me that Dragon players commonly plan to sit back and win a “defensive” match), and he is at best in the same pool of the Ascetic (sp?) Visionary and the Itinerant...... and how many of those cards do Dragon players have in their deck? ?

Practically everything about this character is wrong, wrong, wrong in my book. The art on the card is pretty, but the card isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. And I’m trying to moderate myself so I don’t come off sounding harsh here concerning this monk... ?

 

 

 

He is not more powerful for your opponent than your own forces.  That's ridiculous.  You reverse a rule and it effects both players equally.  You both get the benefits and the penalties.  The difference is you come prepared for this reversal.  They do not.  Is the monk deck there yet?  No.  Is this another piece in the monk puzzle.  Yes certainly.  Is this for the current Dragon deck types and strategies.  Of course not.  He does nothing for that deck.

Also he is great for that Ise Zumi flavor.  Playing a Dragon monk deck is gonna be a bit confounding for the player and the opponent if they keep adding stuff that add rules or reverses rules :)

Edited by phillos

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3 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

No, I don't think it does.  You need to be contesting the Air ring already to get the reduction on Seeker of Knowledge.

What I meant was. Say you contest the fire ring. And you're attacking with Seeker of Knowledge. The contested ring now has Fire and Air.

Any fire or air trait cards are now reduced by 1. Right?

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6 hours ago, Isawa Tasatu said:

I am surprised Secluded Shrine is not unique.... pretty much removes a lot of Phoenix setup, and considering much of the setup dictates the power of the abilities!... nice card :) 

It actually really helps out with a major weakness I've notice playing a lot of Phoenix. Given that we're 'locked in' to contesting certain Rings to trigger our cards it means I end up being a lot poorer on fate than my opponent as I often have to pick the same Rings I contested last turn.

Also keeps your opponent from screwing you when you're second player when they pick the Ring you need before your first opportunity to attack.

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30 minutes ago, ElSuave said:

What I meant was. Say you contest the fire ring. And you're attacking with Seeker of Knowledge. The contested ring now has Fire and Air.

Any fire or air trait cards are now reduced by 1. Right?

Oh, like that!  Yes.

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I'm not sure I would dismiss Togashi Tadakatsu yet. I can't vouch for his competitiveness currently, but he certainly could allow for a different line of play for Dragon.

I am sure there is going to come a day when Dragon monk fate manipulation becomes a real option, and he allows for some of the previous monks to be used on attack and fire off their abilities with much less risk of handing them the fate for doing so. The more Mantras they release only makes him more valuable, a now reliable 0 cost event that both produces a good effect and replaces itself is pretty strong imo.

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