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Zephyr12

Negative skill check and clue tokens...

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Zephyr7 said:

 

Hi. If I need to make skill check, but my skill plus modifiers puts me at -2 dice... how many clue tokens do I spend to roll one die? One or three? Thanks!

 

 

One.  

Your negative modifier doesn't matter for rolling dice with clues.  You get one die per clue unless you have skills that give you an extra die per clue, or Joe Diamond, or both :')

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karpluker said:

I thought clues were just for re-rolls.  I have been playing, if you can't roll originally you can't re-roll.  I'm doing something else wrong aren't I?

No, clues are not for re-rolls, they are bonus dice (additional dice). You spend one clue for one additional roll after failing a skill check.

Have a look at page 13 of the rules:

"Important: Spending a Clue token always gives you the bonus dice that you are entitled to, even if the modifier has dropped the number of dice you can roll below 0."

If the number of dice is negative, you fail the skill check and then you spend one clue for each additional die.

Daniel

 

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karpluker said:

I thought clues were just for re-rolls.  I have been playing, if you can't roll originally you can't re-roll.  I'm doing something else wrong aren't I?

Well, for one thing, you're not re-rolling.  Lucky cigarette case and a few skills allow you to reroll.  So do certain abilities like Mandy.  Clues allow you to add dice to a roll, even if your roll would otherwise be zero (due to a zero or negative modifier for your roll).

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Daniel said:

If the number of dice is negative, you fail the skill check and then you spend one clue for each additional die.

That last part is not correct.  You do not fail your skill check.  If you fail a skill check, that means your rolling is over and whatever happens happens (I'm just telling you this because if you're unclear about the terminology it may cause problems at some point).

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Avi_dreader said:

Daniel said:

 

If the number of dice is negative, you fail the skill check and then you spend one clue for each additional die.

 

 

That last part is not correct.  You do not fail your skill check.  If you fail a skill check, that means your rolling is over and whatever happens happens (I'm just telling you this because if you're unclear about the terminology it may cause problems at some point).

Well. in page 13 of the rules, it says that you fail or pass the check as soon as you roll the dice. After you fail the check (or after you pass it), you can add clues to pass it:

"Example: Joe Diamond fails a Lore (–1) [3] check, but gets two successes. Deciding that he really needs to pass
this check, he discards one Clue token and rolls another die, getting a 3. Still no success, so Joe spends a second Clue token and rolls a second die, this time getting a 6. This extra success increases his total number of successes for the check to 3, enough to pass the check."

Daniel

 

 

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I think that easiest way to handle these things are the following set of rules

  • no matter how many negative modifiers you suffer no Skill Check can have less than zero dice
  • a Skill Check with zero dice is an automatic failure
  • Clue Tokens doesn't allow re-rolls (unless otherwise specified) they give extra dice to roll on the Skill Check
  • if you reroll a Skill Check (using the Cigarette Case for example) you reroll all the dice including those obtained through Clue Tokens

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Daniel said:

Avi_dreader said:

 

Daniel said:

 

If the number of dice is negative, you fail the skill check and then you spend one clue for each additional die.

 

 

That last part is not correct.  You do not fail your skill check.  If you fail a skill check, that means your rolling is over and whatever happens happens (I'm just telling you this because if you're unclear about the terminology it may cause problems at some point).

 

Well. in page 13 of the rules, it says that you fail or pass the check as soon as you roll the dice. After you fail the check (or after you pass it), you can add clues to pass it:

"Example: Joe Diamond fails a Lore (–1) [3] check, but gets two successes. Deciding that he really needs to pass
this check, he discards one Clue token and rolls another die, getting a 3. Still no success, so Joe spends a second Clue token and rolls a second die, this time getting a 6. This extra success increases his total number of successes for the check to 3, enough to pass the check."

Daniel

Right, but, he hasn't failed the check until he accepts failure. In this case he chose to spend clues to try to get enough to make the check a success, but he never truly failed the check unless he wound up with two or fewer successes and there was no other options left for him to try to get enough to pass—otherwise he would have to suffer the consequences of failure.

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Daniel said:

 

Avi_dreader said:

 

Daniel said:

 

If the number of dice is negative, you fail the skill check and then you spend one clue for each additional die.

 

 

That last part is not correct.  You do not fail your skill check.  If you fail a skill check, that means your rolling is over and whatever happens happens (I'm just telling you this because if you're unclear about the terminology it may cause problems at some point).

 

Well. in page 13 of the rules, it says that you fail or pass the check as soon as you roll the dice. After you fail the check (or after you pass it), you can add clues to pass it:

"Example: Joe Diamond fails a Lore (–1) [3] check, but gets two successes. Deciding that he really needs to pass
this check, he discards one Clue token and rolls another die, getting a 3. Still no success, so Joe spends a second Clue token and rolls a second die, this time getting a 6. This extra success increases his total number of successes for the check to 3, enough to pass the check."

Daniel

 

 

What Tibs said.  Additionally, the rules are badly written.  Seriously.  Just because the rule book writers can't keep track of their terminology doesn't mean that you shouldn't.  FFG has a tendency to set aside a regular term as game jargon, and then to simultaneously use it colloquially.  It's really sloppy, but it happens (see "location" for a well known example).  Seriously, the proto-comprehensive FAQ/errata is enormous (it's the size of a rulebook).  And there's a reason for that.

Keep in mind, you're dealing with rules that were written four years ago— there are *lots* of situations that come up because the original rulebook wasn't written with the expansions in mind.  Good eye for catching the phrasing :') unfortunately I'm 99.9% sure it's wrong (because otherwise it leads to utter absurdities like the notion that you can pass *and* fail a check— taking the reward and penalty, when actually, to use one of JR's favorite words (it'll stand out when you read the FAQ whenever it's eventually published) the condition is binary.  It would also trigger a bunch of cards that take effect when you fail a roll.  Either of these reasons would be enough to make it an absurdity.  Both.  Definitely (especially the first one).

 

@Tibs

we should ask for a line in the clarification section stating that a check isn't failed until investigators chose to stop using clues or rerolls for it.  If you check page 13 AH you'll see the problem.  The wording there is really sloppy.

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I don't think that any clarification is necessary. If you've suffered the fail condition, then the check is already failed, which means you've already opted not to use clues. Otherwise, what would be the point of a rule for spending clue tokens?

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Tibs said:

 

I don't think that any clarification is necessary. If you've suffered the fail condition, then the check is already failed, which means you've already opted not to use clues. Otherwise, what would be the point of a rule for spending clue tokens?

 

 

I don't think it really is either, it seems obvious, like the errata for Finn's Holdout, but ::shrug:: not everyone obsesses over the rules and game design.  If it can be clarified in a sentence, I don't see why it shouldn't be.  Go to page thirteen of the rulebook and you'll see why it's problematic, I don't want to get it out again, but it talks about "failing" or "failed" or "failure" of your check, and *then* spending your clues.  *Twice* I think.

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