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RBD vs ECM on large ships

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4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

But do you survive those 3 large attack pools? With XI7, probably not. Acc locks the Brace, and you're still taking like 5 or 6 damage, enough to drop your shields. Rinse n repeat 2 more times and you'll be lucky to have a ship remaining. 

...And if it happens in one round RBD didn’t help either....

 

All are legit choices.

i just strongly believe ECM and EWS are “class of their own”, with everything else - cluster bombs included - is equally as useful as each other in “the rest “ category... ?

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I prefer ECM on large ships. Comms Net allows you to send repair tokens every round to get 6 repair, which is equivalent to RBD or RS. If I happen to find myself facing squads or MSU, ECM won't be useful, but I can spam repairs or navs. CF won't be useful since I can take out small ships with my main battery. Squad command is situational. 

Point is, if I'm not against a large ship, I can likely keep shields up since the attacks come in sporadically during the round, instead of 1 large attack that drops 1 hull.

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My take is similar to Dras’. I approach it as engineering saved/generated. 

RBD: 9* (can’t be crits)

AP: 3-7 depending on shield layout and defense tokens

RS: usually 6, 2/turn

EWS: 4-????/turn. Huge potential upper limit. 

ECM: 6-8/turn in large ship meta. 

 

Same conclusion as Dras. AP/RBD/RS are meta-dependent but similar final value. ECM and EWS are less consistent but potentially far more powerful than the rest in a good matchup. 

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I always try and take into account what my upgrades do without doing anything.  For me ECM and EWS have made some opponents ignore that ship and go for softer targets.  How many damage does that save?  How do you quantify that?

In my experience RBD does not have as strong an effect on my opponent.  It does nothing till you hit the hull and then once used it's no longer a worry and it doesn't do anything for Crits.

The one situation where ECM really doesn't help much is if you are facing a lot of Intel Officer in your Meta, IO is a pretty strong counter to ECM during the course of the game.  X17 and IO can render ECM nearly useless.  In that case RBD would be better but it would still have strong competition from EWS.

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19 minutes ago, Thrindal said:

I always try and take into account what my upgrades do without doing anything.  For me ECM and EWS have made some opponents ignore that ship and go for softer targets.  How many damage does that save?  How do you quantify that?

In my experience RBD does not have as strong an effect on my opponent.  It does nothing till you hit the hull and then once used it's no longer a worry and it doesn't do anything for Crits.

The one situation where ECM really doesn't help much is if you are facing a lot of Intel Officer in your Meta, IO is a pretty strong counter to ECM during the course of the game.  X17 and IO can render ECM nearly useless.  In that case RBD would be better but it would still have strong competition from EWS.

Good point on the mental dissuasion, if people think it’s not going to go down, it won’t get shot at.

ECM will still save you that same three damage that RBD does against a big IO hit, and remain to use you redirects too, it is just is very unlikely to do more.

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2 hours ago, TheCallum said:

Good point on the mental dissuasion, if people think it’s not going to go down, it won’t get shot at.

ECM will still save you that same three damage that RBD does against a big IO hit, and remain to use you redirects too, it is just is very unlikely to do more.

As a player you will use the cards you brought differently in each game and against each opponent. I guess I like RBD because regardless of what I’m facing, I know I’ll get to use it (unless I die in one shot). 

I also tend to take damage differently when running RBD. Instead of mitigation to shields, I might take hull damage intentionally in order to use RBD next round in conjunction with a repair command and I’m back to full hull and full shields with my front arc still facing you. Nice idea at least. 

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10 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I'm skeptical of RBD on anything less than a Motti ISD.

There are too many things that can burn you down with a last/first, making RBD utterly useless.

My Vader Cymoon is one such thing. Aresius' BC another.

The ONLY thing that can save you from this is ECM.

I'd be willing to consider RBD on a Motti 7th Fleet build, but I haven't had time to build/test one properly yet.

I just want to point out that RBD happens at the start of the ship phase, so you need not worry about getting last/first'd. In some last/first cases I would say RBD is an even better defense option then ECM. Example: Demolisher and bomber last/first since there is hardly any relevant accuracy generation.

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6 minutes ago, GalacticFister said:

I just want to point out that RBD happens at the start of the ship phase, so you need not worry about getting last/first'd. In some last/first cases I would say RBD is an even better defense option then ECM. Example: Demolisher and bomber last/first since there is hardly any relevant accuracy generation.

EWS effective saves 3/4 damage from a Double Tapping Demo, purely by assuming those Black dice would be hit/Crit due to copious rerolls, as it’s going to drop a die ftom each attack...

.... Not perfect and of course it plays the odds to make its point. ?

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4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

EWS effective saves 3/4 damage from a Double Tapping Demo, purely by assuming those Black dice would be hit/Crit due to copious rerolls, as it’s going to drop a die ftom each attack...

.... Not perfect and of course it plays the odds to make its point. ?

That's very generous considering at most it's blocking 1 black (last activation, Demo attack from side) and 1 red(first activation, normal attack from front), and it's most likely Demo attacking a different arc with its side.

Edited by GalacticFister

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6 minutes ago, GalacticFister said:

That's very generous considering at most it's blocking 1 black (last activation, Demo attack from side) and 1 red(first activation, normal attack from front), and it's most likely Demo attacking a different arc with its side.

Black -red-black, 

and if you’ve made it so it’s able to shoot 2 different arcs, no defensive retrofit will get you out of that. ?

 

but the black lack is worth 2 on raw damage...   and I mean, the first card (or apt) can’t be flipped or removed with RBD anyway...

... but if you live through it - EWS will be more useful going forward.

Edited by Drasnighta

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1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Black -red-black, 

and if you’ve made it so it’s able to shoot 2 different arcs, no defensive retrofit will get you out of that. ?

Well it's Demo, it will always be able to shoot different arcs assuming it's a decent player. Anyways, my point was simply RBD is most likely to get more value than ECMs in some last/first situations and I still believe that is the case. For EWS it's a different discussion. :P

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Just now, GalacticFister said:

Well it's Demo, it will always be able to shoot different arcs assuming it's a decent player. Anyways, my point was simply RBD is most likely to get more value than ECMs in some last/first situations and I still believe that is the case. For EWS it's a different discussion. :P

Yep, I stand by my statement.

For biggest effects, ECM or EWS as meta appropriate.

(Almost) All the others are cheaper for a reason: reduced potential.

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On 3/5/2018 at 4:03 PM, Drasnighta said:

Black -red-black, 

and if you’ve made it so it’s able to shoot 2 different arcs, no defensive retrofit will get you out of that. ?

 

but the black lack is worth 2 on raw damage...   and I mean, the first card (or apt) can’t be flipped or removed with RBD anyway...

... but if you live through it - EWS will be more useful going forward.

Ran some simulations.  Gladiator I with OE and APT, rerolling hits aggressively to maximize crit chance.

Side arc
4 Black Dice: ~5.9 damage  (~90% crit chance)
3 Black Dice: ~4.57 damage  (~82% crit chance)

Front arc
2 Black, 2 Red: ~4.68 damage  (~68% black crit chance)
2 Black, 1 Red: ~3.94 damage  (~68% black crit chance)

 

So EWS saves you about 1.5 damage on the side arc and about 0.75 damage from a front arc.

 

 

Edit: Reran with ACMs instead of APTs, just to see. 

BBBB: ~6.8
BBB: ~5.4


BBRR: ~5.37
BBR: ~4.61

 

Edited by Valca

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I was quite eager to put Early Warning System (EWS) into play when I first heard about it, and have used it about 5-6 times now with varying degrees of success.  

Against squadrons, it seems like the ideal defense, and it certainly can be if you can keep those enemy squadrons locked down at that particular arc (also assuming you chose well which arc to chaff at the start of the ship phase).  Squadrons can be pretty slippery however, and reliably keeping them from simply attacking a different hull zone is generally easier said than done (unless your opponent is fairly inexperienced and doesn't already have a plan and means to deal with enemy intel, lock-down strategies, etc.).

Against ships, it can also be a bit tricky keeping yourself in an orientation that ONLY exposes your chaffed hull zone (where they can't just select an adjacent hull zone instead), while also remaining effectively positioned to stay coordinated with your fleet and deliver damage yourself.

Ultimately, I consider EWS a decent choice for a defensive upgrade, but be warned that effective navigation is even MORE critical than normal to get good mileage out of it. 

Edited by LeatherPants
clarity

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42 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

I was quite eager to put Early Warning System (EWS) into play when I first heard about it, and have used it about 5-6 times now with varying degrees of success.  

Against squadrons, it seems like the ideal defense, and it certainly can be if you can keep those enemy squadrons locked down at that particular arc (also assuming you chose well which arc to chaff at the start of the ship phase).  Squadrons can be pretty slippery however, and reliably keeping them from simply attacking a different hull zone is generally easier said than done (unless your opponent is fairly inexperienced and doesn't already have a plan and means to deal with enemy intel, lock-down strategies, etc.).

Against ships, it can also be a bit tricky keeping yourself in an orientation that ONLY exposes your chaffed hull zone (where they can't just select an adjacent hull zone instead), while also remaining effectively positioned to stay coordinated with your fleet and deliver damage yourself.

Ultimately, I consider EWS a decent choice for a defensive upgrade, but be warned that effective navigation is even MORE critical than normal to get good mileage out of it. 

This is why Ketsu finally found a Home ?

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36 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

This is why Ketsu finally found a Home ?

Agreed that Ketsu is a viable soft counter to "duck, duck, GOOSE!" squadron movement/attacks.  Obviously, the only down-side is the Lancer Pursuit chassis she is piloting.  :P

On that note, but not so much in line with the OP, the Lancer Pursuit in general is kinda disappointing in general.  You've got a squadron of similar size to the Millennium Falcon, yet it only has 4 hull?  Just seems a little out of line with many of the other "irregular" squadrons in that it was designed with sustained combat in mind (unlike the similarly hulled HWK's and Jumpmasters), yet Armada depicts it as a fairly flimsy quick strike combat scout or something (sorry, the correct way to describe my thoughts are escaping me at the moment.  LOL). 

Edited by LeatherPants
clarity

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3 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

Agreed that Ketsu is a viable soft counter to "duck, duck, GOOSE!" squadron movement/attacks.  Obviously, the only down-side is the Lancer Pursuit chassis she is piloting.  :P

On that note, but not so much in line with the OP, the Lancer Pursuit in general is kinda disappointing in general.  You've got a squadron of similar size to the Millennium Falcon, yet it only has 4 hull?  Just seems a little out of line with many of the other "irregular" squadrons in that it was designed with sustained combat in mind (unlike the similarly hulled HWK's and Jumpmasters), yet Armada depicts it as a fairly flimsy quick strike combat scout or something (sorry, the correct way to describe my thoughts are escaping me at the moment.  LOL). 

I’d consider the Shadowcaster a downside if it weren’t for the fact it has one if only like Four Scatter Tokens in the Rebel Squadron compliment.  That makes the difference to me ?

Edited by Drasnighta

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3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I’d consider the Shadowcaster a downside if it weren’t for the fact it has one if only like Four Scatter Tokens in the Rebel Squadron compliment.  That makes the difference to me ?

Ketsu is certainly the "forgotten" scatter ace of the Rebellion.  "Oh, hello there Shara and Tycho.  Hey, even Lt. Blount came to the party!  Wait...  who's that in the back there?  Ketsu?  Oh yeah, you do have scatter don't you?  I guess I forgot about you, since that tub you're piloting is so, uh, meh..."

I've honestly never used Ketsu, nor seen her on the table that I can recall.  Her ability is so niche, and the general value of a Lancer is so sketchy, that it's hard for me to justify her 22 points that probably would be better spent elsewhere.  Either way, I enjoy and appreciate diversity and options, so I imagine that with some experimentation and practice, she could be a useful addition to the right fleet.      

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Just now, LeatherPants said:

Ketsu is certainly the "forgotten" scatter ace of the Rebellion.  "Oh, hello there Shara and Tycho.  Hey, even Lt. Blount came to the party!  Wait...  who's that in the back there?  Ketsu?  Oh yeah, you do have scatter don't you?  I guess I forgot about you, since that tub you're piloting is so, uh, meh..."

I've honestly never used Ketsu, nor seen her on the table that I can recall.  Her ability is so niche, and the general value of a Lancer is so sketchy, that it's hard for me to justify her 22 points that probably would be better spent elsewhere.  Either way, I enjoy and appreciate diversity and options, so I imagine that with some experimentation and practice, she could be a useful addition to the right fleet.      

I mean, that’s just kinda how I think... “Oh, intel makes it easy for them to jump to an unprotected zone - ohey, there IS something to slow them down! Give it a try I guess!”.

 

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While I agree with Drasighta's overall assessment (that the more expensive upgrades have more potential) one thing I haven't seen discussed much is the control potential of EWS. Those one-dice bombers want to move to attack to a different hull zone so lay a trap there. Either your own squadrons, so they're engaged and can't attack your ship, or flak to shoot them down. Or both!

Controlling the enemy's movement is one of the most powerful tools in wargaming. Although Armada's control options are generally underwhelming (Hi Konstantine!) they shouldn't be overlooked.

 

Edited by Cactus

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On 3/5/2018 at 2:25 AM, xanderf said:

RBD is always going to save you 3 damage.  No more, no less.  In every situation.

 

 

It's really not.

In non-theoretical games, the most obvious time I find it doesn't save me 3 damage is when my ship has been destroyed in a single turn, but there are also the many cases where I have taken 1 or 2 damage cards and have to use it early to avoid probably losing the ship in the coming turn.

I do like the upgrade, but it's far from being a reliable source of 3 spare hull points.

 

 

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It really depends on what you expect to face and what you are afraid of facing. I gravitate between RBD, ECM, and EWS, but lately have done without as cymoons dont have the slot lol. I do fine without it, i think. For my 2 cents, I think early warning system is good depending on how you like to engage. If you are actively looking to double arc people for offensive purposes, I see no reason to use it. If you have avenger or sloane or intel officer in your meta, ecm can be useless as well. I think rbd is the most reliable of the 3 depending on how you fly your ships, but typically only bother with defensive retrofits on large ships as I dont feel they are worth their points cost on smaller ships. I disagree very much with the notion that cluster bombs saves you as much damage as the other 3 and advanced projectors is almost useless with the prevalence of xi7s to this day. IF you can fly correctly, I find ews the most mitigative, though only if you fly defensively. If you fly offensively, I find rbd to be the most helpful. ecm is entirely dependent on what lists you face and thus is a more chancy upgrade in general.

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On 3/7/2018 at 10:38 AM, Valca said:

4 Black Dice: ~5.9 damage  (~90% crit chance)
3 Black Dice: ~4.57 damage  (~82% crit chance)

Weird. I see minus signs in the original text, which confused the heck out of me. When I bold the symbols, they turn into tildes ("approximately" signs). Something weird in the font? In FFG's code?

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On 3/5/2018 at 6:02 AM, Church14 said:

My take is similar to Dras’. I approach it as engineering saved/generated.

But there's a vast difference between eight damage evenly distributed to all four shields, and eight damage to a single shield ("Oops, I took hull again!")

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