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comatose

RBD vs ECM on large ships

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So I'm starting to think I have a different opinion than a lot of people: for most situations on a large ship that has Contain, RBD is the much better choice than ECM.

ECM is good when you are going to be taking more than 4 damage multiple times over the course of at least two turns, perhaps three. In all other cases, I think RBD is better.

Damage cards are more expensive to ditch than just recovering or moving shields. If I'm expecting to take damage, I often have an Engineering command stacked. With RBD, I don't have to worry about an accuracy on a Redirect and can just let some of the damage through. Then the Engineering can either recover the shields lost or move shields if that makes more sense, and the RBD discards most or all of the damage cards. 

RBD is useful for offensive Engine Techs or when you expect to be rammed.

ECM is useless if your opponent doesn't roll or create accuracies.

RBD is useless if you don't take damage cards or if you die in a single turn.

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Gosh this could go either way. 

RBD has saved my Star Destroyer countless times. However, ECM could arguably have been used a couple times to the same effect. 

I will say that since I run a light fighter screen (VERY light), RBD is nice as I don’t need to overly stress about overloaded defense tokens from bomber/fighter attacks. Use my contain, take hull damage for a turn, dump it next round with fresh shields. Pick your poison I guess…

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17 minutes ago, mr_mithrandir said:

I will say that since I run a light fighter screen (VERY light), RBD is nice as I don’t need to overly stress about overloaded defense tokens from bomber/fighter attacks. Use my contain, take hull damage for a turn, dump it next round with fresh shields. Pick your poison I guess…

Oh yeah, squadrons are another reason that RBD is more useful. If you have 3 squads that do 1 damage each, the ECM is useless.

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I’ve stated it in other places, but basically , it boils down to meta choice between 2 tiers of upgrades.

 

ECM and EWS have the potential to save the most damage points - one against big ship shots, the other against Squadrons.

 

ALL of the other defensive retros - including clusters, rbd and AP are going to, in effect, save you 3 points if damage in a game...

 

RBD by healing 3 face down cards.

AP by letting you redirect to the side/rear

Ckusters by killing or disincentiveising squadton attacks for 1-2 turns.

Redundsnt shields for 3 turns of engagement...

 

 

RBD never saves more than 3. In a game.

Thst can help you survive for sure... but st the same cost, it’s JUST AS USEFUL IN CURCUMSTANCES AS CLUSTER BOMBS.

( ...and AP, and RS, etc.  Everything but ECM and EWS)

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Right, but while ECM or EWS might save you more than three damage...they also might do nothing at all, depending on who/what you are fighting.

RBD is always going to save you 3 damage.  No more, no less.  In every situation.

So...yeah, I think that has pretty good value for its cost.

(FWIW, I do think you are under-selling AP a bit, there.  While looking at it as a one-time use to 'redirect and empty an opposite shield that isn't being threatened' is one way to see it, it doesn't exhaust or discard to use, so you can keep doing that over and over.  A 'perfect' usage of it on an ISD sees the ship end the game with 0 shields all around, but no hull damage.  That's a lot of extra damage blocked, nevermind that shields are themselves much easier to repair than hull!)

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8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

RBD never saves more than 3. In a game.

Thst can help you survive for sure... but st the same cost, it’s JUST AS USEFUL IN CURCUMSTANCES AS CLUSTER BOMBS.

( ...and AP, and RS, etc.  Everything but ECM and EWS)

On the other hand it's hard for RBD to save you less than 3 on a large ship.

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23 minutes ago, PT106 said:

On the other hand it's hard for RBD to save you less than 3 on a large ship.

Yet, the situation where ECM doesn't save you more than 3 damage in a game, RBD might be only saving you 2 as well...

 

...  and EWS is still probably the better choice...

...  or AP has saved you 5...  

 

They are calls about what you expect to face.

 

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27 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Right, but while ECM or EWS might save you more than three damage...they also might do nothing at all, depending on who/what you are fighting.

RBD is always going to save you 3 damage.  No more, no less.  In every situation.

So...yeah, I think that has pretty good value for its cost.

(FWIW, I do think you are under-selling AP a bit, there.  While looking at it as a one-time use to 'redirect and empty an opposite shield that isn't being threatened' is one way to see it, it doesn't exhaust or discard to use, so you can keep doing that over and over.  A 'perfect' usage of it on an ISD sees the ship end the game with 0 shields all around, but no hull damage.  That's a lot of extra damage blocked, nevermind that shields are themselves much easier to repair than hull!)

Man, I've had days where the only cards I've had were Face up...   I had to wait until I'd suffered three structurals before I had 3 face down cards...

 

It happens.  Its unlikely.  But it does.

But for the points, I'd rather be taking the shot to save more and make a good meta call.

 

I mean, EWS even against large ships, removing 3 dice due to obstruction is almost equivelant to RBD pretty much....  

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Man, I've had days where the only cards I've had were Face up...   I had to wait until I'd suffered three structurals before I had 3 face down cards...

 

It happens.  Its unlikely.  But it does.

But for the points, I'd rather be taking the shot to save more and make a good meta call.

 

I mean, EWS even against large ships, removing 3 dice due to obstruction is almost equivelant to RBD pretty much....  

I really have a hard time seeing where EWS isn’t going to save at least three unless they just don’t shoot at you.   You’d some very big shots for it not to do so and in those cases RBD aren’t likely to save you either.   I can also see situations where RBD doesn’t save you three, either because you don’t get the chance to use it or you have less than three at the start of the ship phase.   It is cheaper, though, and for a reason.

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ECMs is a counter to big, single attacks (large ships). EWS is a counter to many small attacks (MSU/squadrons). RBDs doesn't counter anything, but pulls its weight equally regardless of match-up.

RBDs is just not even comparable for, say, an MC75 that expects to have to take a close range Kuat or medium range Cymoon front arc.

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9 hours ago, xanderf said:

RBD is always going to save you 3 damage.  No more, no less.  In every situation.

This is just wrong. 

Due to its timing, there are circumstances where you may lose your ship before having the opportunity to play it, in which case it saved you 0 damage. 

Or you may have 2 hull done, and decide you may not survive to play it for 3 hull and so you take your chance while you have it.

 

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I think EWS is the most flexible of the defensive retrofits it's really good against squdrons and pretty good against small ship attacks, and it really is the best upgrade to use against boarding trooper avenger, as ecms really wont help against it when you can't spend the token, and blast doors are really only going to help if you survive the one hit wonder, ews is the only upgrade that will always do something at the very least it will make your opponent attack a different hull zone one that you might would rather have them attack, I haven't had a lot of play time with ews, but with the meta looking like heavy squdron lists, and Boarding troopers avenger combo, I think it is the upgrade to take.

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1 hour ago, Madaghmire said:

This is just wrong. 

Due to its timing, there are circumstances where you may lose your ship before having the opportunity to play it, in which case it saved you 0 damage. 

Or you may have 2 hull done, and decide you may not survive to play it for 3 hull and so you take your chance while you have it.

 

'Losing before you get a chance to play it' is pretty unusual for large-base ships.

As to cheaper/small-base ships...well, pretty much all these retrofits have their cost-value flipped on their head.

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2 hours ago, xanderf said:

'Losing before you get a chance to play it' is pretty unusual for large-base ships.

As to cheaper/small-base ships...well, pretty much all these retrofits have their cost-value flipped on their head.

Avenger players will disagree. One shotting a large ship isnt unheard of. But that case only ews might save a couple of damage. And Brunson shouldnt be looked over.

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20 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

 

3 hours ago, xanderf said:

'Losing before you get a chance to play it' is pretty unusual for large-base ships.

As to cheaper/small-base ships...well, pretty much all these retrofits have their cost-value flipped on their head.

Avenger players will disagree. One shotting a large ship isnt unheard of. But that case only ews might save a couple of damage. And Brunson shouldnt be looked over.

"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance" - Sun Tzu

 

(One day you could end up versing him)

;)

Edited by DrakonLord

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17 hours ago, comatose said:

So I'm starting to think I have a different opinion than a lot of people: for most situations on a large ship that has Contain, RBD is the much better choice than ECM.

ECM is good when you are going to be taking more than 4 damage multiple times over the course of at least two turns, perhaps three. In all other cases, I think RBD is better.

Damage cards are more expensive to ditch than just recovering or moving shields. If I'm expecting to take damage, I often have an Engineering command stacked. With RBD, I don't have to worry about an accuracy on a Redirect and can just let some of the damage through. Then the Engineering can either recover the shields lost or move shields if that makes more sense, and the RBD discards most or all of the damage cards. 

RBD is useful for offensive Engine Techs or when you expect to be rammed.

ECM is useless if your opponent doesn't roll or create accuracies.

RBD is useless if you don't take damage cards or if you die in a single turn.

I'm skeptical of RBD on anything less than a Motti ISD.

There are too many things that can burn you down with a last/first, making RBD utterly useless.

My Vader Cymoon is one such thing. Aresius' BC another.

The ONLY thing that can save you from this is ECM.

I'd be willing to consider RBD on a Motti 7th Fleet build, but I haven't had time to build/test one properly yet.

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RBD replaces ECM on my ISDs when Riekkan, Yavaris, & TRCs were ubiquitous.  They were cheaper, and better, against those lists.

With nerfs and the new wave leading to large ships becoming more mainstream, I’ve shifted my opinion back to ECM- not being able to brace the main arc shots of these big ships is devastating.

You simply can’t take more than two unbraceable, 6 damage, XI7 shots and survive, and the ships I’m seeing will do that at medium range without a problem.

 

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16 hours ago, xanderf said:

RBD is always going to save you 3 damage.  No more, no less.  In every situation.

Not really. It only save you 3 damage when you have the chance to use it.
If your ship is getting destroyed to fast it does nothing.

Basically what @Madaghmire  already said. I just hit reply to fast ;)

Edited by Tokra

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6 hours ago, xanderf said:

'Losing before you get a chance to play it' is pretty unusual for large-base ships.

As to cheaper/small-base ships...well, pretty much all these retrofits have their cost-value flipped on their head.

Unusual still means sometimes, which is decidedly different than always.

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Unusual?

NON Motti ISD only has 11 hull.

Assuming XI7 and no brace, it can take 16 damage to a single (front) zone without dying.

That's not difficult to do with some ships.

And if the zone has any shield damage or rams are involved?

And that's the ISD. Other ships have even less hull.

Edited by Green Knight

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16 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Unusual?

NON Motti ISD only has 11 hull.

Assuming XI7 and no brace, it can take 16 damage to a single (front) zone without dying.

That's not difficult to do with some ships.

And if the zone has any shield damage or rams are involved?

And that's the ISD. Other ships have even less hull.

And you are being generous, because those first ~5 bits of shield damage can happen on previous turns.

Which begs a question, can it be the right decision to deliberately let them through to your hull so you can more safely RBD whilst you have shields left?

Does this entirely depend if you have engineering commands lined up?

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9 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

And you are being generous, because those first ~5 bits of shield damage can happen on previous turns.

Which begs a question, can it be the right decision to deliberately let them through to your hull so you can more safely RBD whilst you have shields left?

Does this entirely depend if you have engineering commands lined up?

Imo yes it can.

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17 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean, EWS even against large ships, removing 3 dice due to obstruction is almost equivelant to RBD pretty much....  

But do you survive those 3 large attack pools? With XI7, probably not. Acc locks the Brace, and you're still taking like 5 or 6 damage, enough to drop your shields. Rinse n repeat 2 more times and you'll be lucky to have a ship remaining. 

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