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ImperialOfficer

Regional Etiquette

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@galonso: Everything you say here about you not doing anything that is in conflict with the rules raises the suspicion that you are one of those people that follow rules to the letter, not to the intent, and find ways to manipulate in your or your team's favor.

Edited by Fourtytwo

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30 minutes ago, galonso said:

Your lack of sportsmanship

I'm confused here. You agree with me above that your actions directly resulted in a negative play experience for others, regardless of whether they would be allowed or not, yet you criticise others for lack of sportmanship? This seems a bit of a pot and kettle situation. 

Play the game. Don't play the system.

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I tried to be civil. They were berating and harassing me and my friend all day making inappropriate comments. That falls under unsportsmanlike conduct. Then it went overboard when they didn’t make top cut.

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12 minutes ago, galonso said:

I tried to be civil. They were berating and harassing me and my friend all day making inappropriate comments. That falls under unsportsmanlike conduct. Then it went overboard when they didn’t make top cut.

Not one person harassed your friend. He seemed like a nice guy. 

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16 hours ago, cleardave said:

Refer to the tournament document under the heading "Unsporting Conduct".

So if you want a ruling, based solely on your anecdotal evidence, I would say that by forfeiting the match specifically to boost his friend's tournament score, that the players were colluding to manipulate scoring.

 

So, having read both accounts a few times carefully, I'd say that the players (Galonso and his friend) weren't paying attention to their rules responsibilities, and when they asked, the judge made a bad ruling. The two players clearly were trying to game the system to elevate one player's scoreboard chances. That said, as @galonso mentions, they weren't "colluding" in the sense of doing something secret ... but they did make a personal agreement to try to give one player a scoreboard edge, rather than playing the competitive match and letting the best player win. As @Imperial officer and others note, that directly resulted in a bad play experience for a number of other players.

The original post asks a question about etiquette, and I'd say that as a member of this broader community, I'd expect players to play their games.

The only real exception I buy is the well-known case of conceding a fourth match when you know you'll be in the top-8 cut in order to keep your command cards or play-style secret: this is not scoreboard manipulation by multiple players; rather, it's seeking a personal advantage towards victory. Still may not be the most "sporting," but it seems pretty RAW-legal.

To @Imperial officer, I'd say that I'm sorry you had the experience -- again, I'd say the TO made a bad call; to some extent, all you can do is move forward in competitive play.
To @galonso, I agree that you asked for a ruling and were given one, but -- speaking for myself -- I'd hope you behave differently in the future. Integrity, to my mind, is not only accountability to your own sense of justice, but to a community's values and norms, and I hope you can hear here that this situation has caused frustration and concern. I understand the choice you made and the process you used, but I'd ask you -- again, for myself -- not to repeat it, and again, if I had been running the event, I would have required you to play your game, and exhorted you both to play a real game and not just "throw" it in-game.

That's my two cents.

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4 hours ago, Fourtytwo said:

@galonso: Everything you say here about you not doing anything that is in conflict with the rules raises the suspicion that you are one of those people that follow rules to the letter, not to the intent, and find ways to manipulate in your or your team's favor.

You can suspect whatever you wish. I did not manipulate things. It’s in the rules, I can concede. I chose to concede for the reasons listed. I don’t know what FFGs intent is but I will ask them on Monday. We should just move on. I think we are pretty clear on both sides and I’m tired of getting trashed all weekend. Thanks

Edited by galonso

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I played in this same tournament and wanted to add my two cents on a different issue but related in terms of etiquette. 

The first round I lost when after thinking I had Vader killed; Stealth Tactics was played and a dodge was rolled. Vader then sliced IG-88 in twain. A 28 POINT SWING in mere moments! I threw my hands in the air, sighed and moved on. A think this reaction was natural but I tried to stifle it and get on with the game. 

Several games later, however, I had taken out a high-cost figure who had been left exposed early in a match. My opponent was understandably upset but was cursing his luck with such ferocity that I found myself feeling extremely guilty for taking out the figure. It was really distracting with the sighing, venting and even the tossing of tokens as if all else were futile in life. To both of our surprises his still edged a victory by a few points, but I really hated that I felt so guarded and cautious for the rest of the match and I wonder if it affected my play. 

The short of it is:  I'm wondering if another's player's conduct has made you feel so cautious that you were not attentive to the game itself.

Edited by Ajax Romano

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1 hour ago, Ajax Romano said:

The first round I lost when after thinking I had Vader killed; Stealth Tactics was played and a dodge was rolled.

Out of interest, you thought you had him killed, but then Stealth Tactics was played. As in you expected to be able to kill him with that attack before doing the attack; or as in Stealth Tactics was played after the dice was rolled and you thought you had killed him..?

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14 minutes ago, Cremate said:

Out of interest, you thought you had him killed, but then Stealth Tactics was played. As in you expected to be able to kill him with that attack before doing the attack; or as in Stealth Tactics was played after the dice was rolled and you thought you had killed him..?

The latter. Prompted by your question, I looked this up and see now that the "while" in this case would have to occur before any dice are rolled. Wish you were around yesterday to raise an eyebrow.  It's okay though as we were both relatively new players and agreed early on that "while" meant any time during an attack. Lesson learned the hard way. 

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Just now, Ajax Romano said:

The latter. Prompted by your question, I looked this up and see now that the "while" in this case would have to occur before any dice are rolled. Wish you were around yesterday to raise an eyebrow.  It's okay though as we were both relatively new players and agreed early on that "while" meant any time during an attack. Lesson learned the hard way. 

Yeah, didn't mean to suggest it was played against better knowledge. It's a common mistake for players to make - anything related to "while attacking" really - and just wanted to point it out. A1bert has made an excellent guide for those effects found here on BGG.

And good spirit to just take it as a learning moment. The same goes for how to deal with ups and downs in tournament matches in you initial post: being invested is understandable, but I consider it part of good sportmanship to not make your opponent feel miserable because you are doing poorly. I have, in one of the other FFG tournament games, seen chairs - if not tables - being flipped in frustation. That's obviously unacceptable, but other than that, it can be difficult as a judge when to step in, if someone are getting too heated. For most part it's about the players adhering to common curtesy towards their fellow players.

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1 hour ago, Ajax Romano said:

I played in this same tournament and wanted to add my two cents on a different issue but related in terms of etiquette. 

The first round I lost when after thinking I had Vader killed; Stealth Tactics was played and a dodge was rolled. Vader then sliced IG-88 in twain. A 28 POINT SWING in mere moments! I threw my hands in the air, sighed and moved on. A think this reaction was natural but I tried to stifle it and get on with the game. 

Several games later, however, I had taken out a high-cost figure who had been left exposed early in a match. My opponent was understandably upset but was cursing his luck with such ferocity that I found myself feeling extremely guilty for taking out the figure. It was really distracting with the sighing, venting and even the tossing of tokens as if all else were futile in life. To both of our surprises his still edged a victory by a few points, but I really hated that I felt so guarded and cautious for the rest of the match and I wonder if it affected my play. 

The short of it is:  I'm wondering if another's player's conduct has made you feel so cautious that you were not attentive to the game itself.

That's pretty much a blow-by-blow description of my one and only negative play experience in Imperial Assault.  In the final of my first tournament, I killed off my opponent's best combat figures early in round two (the rest of his list was a bunch of assorted low cost support and objective grabbers).  He got really salty at this point, and from then on anytime I paused to look at the board even for a few seconds he would say things like "well it's already over, I don't know why you're even bothering to think about it".  The sighing, the mumbling - everything pretty much just like you're describing it.  This continued until I made a really dumb positioning mistake with my Luke, allowing him to get a shot off with his one remaining weequay to bring him one point into the lead just as time was expiring.

I'm not absolving myself of the blame for my mistake - it was something that I should have seen coming.  It was also my first tourney, and who knows, maybe I would have made the same blunder had he been a great opponent.  But I just felt rushed and under pressure the whole game, and whether or not it really had an effect on my decisions it certainly felt like it did at the time.

I haven't come up against that player again, but I expect I might soon as we've got our local regionals coming up this weekend.  If I get matched up with him I'm going to try to go into it with an open mind and give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also going to make it a point to take my time and to not let my foot off the gas if things start to go my way.

I think the biggest thing, though, is that this guy probably didn't even know that I perceived him as a bit of a jerk and just thought that he was letting off steam.  And I'm sure he's not a bad guy at all.  Really I think that it might do us all a bit of good to remember that there's a difference between a bit of self-deprecating humour and being sore to the point that it's uncomfortable for our opponents, and that line might be tough to see if we're mad at ourselves.  

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As Cremate just said, it's hard to judge a situation by just reading about it.

16 hours ago, galonso said:

We did not do anything in secret, we went to the head judge and she agreed.

IF that is correct, then everything went by the rules. Not very sportsmanlike, but definitely not cheating.

16 hours ago, galonso said:

he and his teammates berated me and insulted me the rest of the day.

IF this is true, as a judge, this would have been my reason for a disqualification.

@ImperialOfficer: I've not been there, I don't know your motives, so I don't really know. But reading this thread just felt like "sour loser complaining". (Just my impression!)

Edited by DerBaer

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As I don't like this kind of "playling the tournament, not the game"  attitude, I have to say, that the person to blame here (if any) is the TO, not the players. If the TO, knowing all the details and motivations, did allow this kind of behaviour, then he should take the responsibility . Ie. If I win a game because of bad rules interpratation made by the judge, is it my fault or his? 

Edited by Szycha

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4 hours ago, DerBaer said:
21 hours ago, galonso said:

he and his teammates berated me and insulted me the rest of the day.

IF this is true, as a judge, this would have been my reason for a disqualification.

@ImperialOfficer: I've not been there, I don't know your motives, so I don't really know. But reading this thread just felt like "sour loser complaining". (Just my impression!)

Hi DerBaer,

Sorry for the impression you got, that was definitely not my intent, but I can understand how that could have been perceived. My original post was more shock than anything, I’ve never been at a tournament like this. I didn’t mention his name or that every round ended in some chaos involving him, with players that were not my teammates. A prominent player from Atlanta area also had run ins with him. I honestly had not said one word to him until our match in round 5. It was a very tense game as we exchanged words quickly during setup regarding his slow play all day and his collusion. 

Looking back it’s a huge learning opportunity for me  as our local area, and in every tournament I’ve been to so far (including nationals), I’ve only experienced upstanding Star Wars players who enjoy playing games.  I guess I was just naive to this type of action.  So that’s on me.  

 

Edited by ImperialOfficer

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13 hours ago, ManateeX said:

Really I think that it might do us all a bit of good to remember that there's a difference between a bit of self-deprecating humour and being sore to the point that it's uncomfortable for our opponents, and that line might be tough to see if we're mad at ourselves.  

Well said and worth repeating here. 

Good luck at the regional! 

Edited by Ajax Romano
omission

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1 hour ago, ImperialOfficer said:

Hi DerBaer,

Sorry for the impression you got, that was definitely not my intent, but I can understand how that could have been perceived. My original post was more shock than anything, I’ve never been at a tournament like this. 

That’s because that’s exactly what it is. Youre pissed you didn’t make top cut. I have tried to make peace with you repeatedly and you won’t let it go. I’ll be contacting FFG today to see their position and so I know for next time.

All the allegations of slow play came after you don’t make the cut. Slow play is when you milk the clock to win on time. I lost by a large margin to the Atlanta player and I also lost to you also by more than 10 pts. Where was the slow play? Oh I remember it was round one when I played your teammate and there was 1 min left and he was rushing me so that I’d make a mistake and he could win the game with an end of round Han shot. There was no slow play. There were you’re teams allegations due to the concession.

The guy from Atlanta did something illegal in our game I called the judge. He then accused me of slow play in response (he was winning) and then you and you’re teammates piled on with accusations of cheating. It all went downhill. It created a negative experience for me.

Now you’re the innocent naive saint just trying to understand. Give me a break. You’re trying to publicly call me out (even though you didn’t initially name me) and make me look like a villain.. a blight. You’ve posted here and on Facebook. You and your buddies disparaged me when they were announcing standings at the end and after the event.  Beware!

Again, sorry you didn’t make the cut. I understand your position but I didn’t deliberately try to screw you. I had no idea who would be in contention after round 3.

Edited by galonso

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23 minutes ago, galonso said:

I have tried to make peace with you repeatedly and you won’t let it go.

I was responding to DerBaer, as I thought you had left the discussion, as you've stated multiple times.  

23 minutes ago, galonso said:

You’ve posted here and on Facebook. 

I responded to a comment in our North Florida/GA facebook page, I had no idea that you were in our group page.  

23 minutes ago, galonso said:

All the allegations of slow play came after you don’t make the cut.

3 of your 4 matches resulted in people accusing you of slow play.  I never accused you of slow play.  I had not said a single word to you until our match in round 5.  You brought up the slow play and how you said everyone was accusing you of it.  I said my issue was that your collusion screwed every one else in the tournament.  I said it was a bush league move and that you had no respect for the rest of the people in the tournament.  I then beat you.  

Edited by ImperialOfficer

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4 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:

@FFGEvan Please consider locking this thread. This discussion is not constructive.

Hi Brett, 

Sorry for the issues it caused.  I had no intention of creating an issue.  There is clearly a rift here that will last for a while based on what happened between a lot of people this weekend, not just he and I.  

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2 hours ago, ImperialOfficer said:

I was responding to DerBaer, as I thought you had left the discussion, as you've stated multiple times.  

I responded to a comment in our North Florida/GA facebook page, I had no idea that you were in our group page.  

3 of your 4 matches resulted in people accusing you of slow play.  I never accused you of slow play.  I had not said a single word to you until our match in round 5.  You brought up the slow play and how you said everyone was accusing you of it.  I said my issue was that your collusion screwed every one else in the tournament.  I said it was a bush league move and that you had no respect for the rest of the people in the tournament.  I then beat you.  

It’s interesting to read a persons perception of events. Erroneous as they may be. No one called a judge on me for stalling the entire event. The only person that claimed slow play was after I called the judge for an illegal play he made. Then your buddy piled on and created a scene. I played you next and I tried to apologize to you for the disagreement from the previous game and you insulted me and said you had no respect for me before and after the game you beat me. Remember? I believe you used the word cheater and chickens**t. If you let it go, I will.  You keep spreading misinformation and I will respond. Your move.

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Just got off the phone with Jimmy from Organized Play Department at FFG. In our situation the judge ruled correctly. We did nothing wrong, against “the spirit of the game”, or intent. Collusion is intimidation or bribery. They will review the situation and make any changes they deem necessary in the future. Feel free to verify if you wish.  

Some people may not like the answer and I get it. But it is what it is.

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