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Herowannabe

Dear FFG: the Ghost and Miranda

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There's a hard regen counter coming in the next wave. Maybe wait until then before hitting Miranda's ability? The suggested fix in the OP isn't going to stop her winning games, she's just going to do it at time more often.

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44 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

So, you go on and claim universal support for your idiocy.  No pre-judging there, eh?

Before this thread I had seen nothing but universal support for both ideas, and that is what I claimed. Since then I have edited my first post to retract that statement (15 minutes before your remark, I might add). ;)

Edited by Herowannabe

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5 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Before this thread I had seen nothing but universal support for both ideas, and that is what I claimed. Since then I have edited my first post to retract that statement (15 minutes before your remark, I might add). ;)

Yeah... I don't see how this:

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

I see that these tweaks aren’t as universally supported as I thought they were, and I’ll edit the first post accordingly. But please, let’s leave the venom and pre-judgements out of it, shall we?

Illicits this response:

52 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

So, you go on and claim universal support for your idiocy.  No pre-judging there, eh?

@Stay On The Leader, when someone admits they were wrong on a point and declares they'll rectify their mistake, that kind of reply makes no sense. It just makes you look petty.

"You admit you were wrong huh? Fix it will you? Idiot! I'll not part with my venom!"

SMH...

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Dear FFG,

I really can't blame anyone here for all these non-constructive and irrational Nerf Threads. The fault all lies with the development team, and their constant reliance on the nerfhammer as their only correctional tool. By not balancing out the batch of nerf erratas with one or two QOL errata or even a buff to under-performing mechanics the developers have set the negative tone that infests all of X-wing competitive community to the official forums, the fan podcasts, even the tournament scene itself. 

I will still give out my vocal opposition to all nerf threads even for things quite clearly are dominating the top tables of official tournaments on the basis that these nerfs are ineffective at solving the meta problems. Ever since the balance erratas we have had a slew of corrections some that not only invalidate an earlier nerf but also quite frankly left the door open for even more exploitative tactics. One such was a nerf targeting the Jumpmaster mainly in dealing with the Deadeye R4-Agromech combo. The way the timing chart made had given TLT ghosts title both attacks in the end phase moving it from 3 attacks to 4 attacks a round. The all-too-easy go to nerf tool has turned into that slippery slope where little wasn't enough and now the competitive scene has slid down into a salarac pit that it can't be pulled out of. 

The developers need to find new and creative ways to deal with the meta imbalance problem. Releasing counters in the following waves proves to be too slow and open to power creep and nerf erratas have proven to be ineffective as a more dominating list just arrives from it. Furthermore the constant nerfs have fostered a negativity in the community that quite frankly believes that tournament winners are not based on the skill of the player but on the list that the player brought. I will oppose any suggestions for a nerf, I don't care if they are just another alias or portrait online, or if they have their own podcast, or a Ph.D in math. They are clearly wrong and expecting a different outcome from the same methods is merely madness.

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3 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

My private life is all good, thanks for your concern, but this place has descended so deeply into salty farce I can't possibly engage with it in anything like a serious way.

So what were you trying to accomplish by posting here? Like I said, you've had some great contributions to the community. Being salty about salt isn't one of them.

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21 hours ago, Yodas Mum said:

Its the exact opposite.

Dominant Archetypes completly remove the bazzillon possible other squads from the Meta.

Whisper removed EVERY jouster. Reducing meta to Fathan

Deadeyejumpmaster removed a whole faction.And so on and on....

This SEEMS normal, cause it was almost always the case. If you want to play competitively (aka aim to win a tournament) you are reduced to approx 10-20 Pilots...... out of 234 . That is 5 to 10 %. Right now it is reduced to max. 10 out of 234 ...if you want to win a tournament. You have to have at least 2 out of the top 10 Pilots in your squad.  Imagine any other strategiegame like total war warhammer or starcraft with such a distorted  balance. Only using zealots and archons the rest is crap. X-wing right know totally runs on it formidabel core-mechanic. The balancing is outrigth terrible. It is obvious that their is no one responsible for balancing the game at FFG. Maybe this is intentional. 

Here are the foreseeable answers to my opinion:

You dont have to play.....chose another game.....you dont have a clue.....i won yesterday against my granny so theres no problem...you cant win, so you want to nerf EVERYTHING......

If i might answer that bevorhand:

I love to play, cause i love the game...more than any other game, cause its mechanic is brilliant....i am not only playing the game, but analys it since the i started in wave4...i have won tournaments.

Well said!

Are you from Germany? I think I remember you from MER!

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10 hours ago, Marinealver said:

The developers need to find new and creative ways to deal with the meta imbalance problem. Releasing counters in the following waves proves to be too slow and open to power creep and nerf erratas have proven to be ineffective as a more dominating list just arrives from it. Furthermore the constant nerfs have fostered a negativity in the community that quite frankly believes that tournament winners are not based on the skill of the player but on the list that the player brought. I will oppose any suggestions for a nerf, I don't care if they are just another alias or portrait online, or if they have their own podcast, or a Ph.D in math. They are clearly wrong and expecting a different outcome from the same methods is merely madness.

Make an Boxed Set to upgrade your Ships to X-Wing 2.0 (maybe even with a new additional die or redone dies with more symbols). Rework Basic Rules. This game NEEDS a 2nd Edition. It is like an old winter lodge, which is cozy in the night because of the fireplace... as long as you ignore all the cobwebs and dust all over the place. We need a spring! Open the **** windows and dust of these shelves.

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Miranda + TLT was fine back in Wave 7, Wave 8, etc.
I played her competitively back in Wave 7 and she was good, but she had a lot of predators. Palpaces, other turrets, ordnance of any kind, 2 or more fast autothruster ships, etc.

She is just a 1 agility ship that kites as her modus operandi. That is what she is.

Limiting her ability to in arc would kill her because the k-wing's dial is absolute crap. It's only bearable because she has SLAM (same case as gunboats'), but then she cannot attack or regen.
Limiting her ability to primary weapon only would mean that she can regen or deal damage, but not both. So if Miranda ends alone, she can basically not win the game because her single green dice and her regen will only delay her death. That is very unfair for a ship that virtually costs 35 points minimum.

So if Miranda wasn't broken back then, why is she broken right now?

  • Bombs greatly punish pursuers:
    A kiting Miranda had a chance to win by kiting with 3 speed movements and doing potshots with her TLT while regenning. It was a countdown because she had no chance to mitigate damage other than with her 1 green die and her 1 regen.
    However, being able to release bombs while kiting discourages pursuit, so it makes her much stronger.
    Luckily she can only do this twice, or 4 times with extra munitions, at the great costs of having to equip 2 bombs and Extra munitions (6 points with Seismic Charges). 
    What went wrong:
    Sabine Wren: Now Miranda can deal much more damage with her bombs, what discourages pursuers even more.
    Bomblet Generator: Now Miranda can do this not only 4 times at a cost of 6 points, but infinite times at a cost of 3 points!
    What should be done:
    Fix Sabine Wren. Fix Bomblet Generator.
  • TLT is too effective against all ships:
    TLT was designed as a fix card for Y-wings, HWK and K-wings (k-wings came out of the box overcosted by about 2-3 points). Their main purpose was to fight back high mitigation high health targets like Fat Han.
    It has good synergy with Miranda's ability, that allows her to regen and still have a chance at dealing 1 or even 2 damage per round.
    What went wrong:
    TLT is effective at fixing overcosted turret ships, at preying on high mitigation high health ships, but also against most other ships that have no way to defend against a double TLT attack because they cannot equip autothrusters.
    TLT was problematic from Wave 7 itself, when the 4 TLT archtype appeared and wiped lots of ships out of the competitive scene.
    What should be done:
    Nerf TLT a bit. It still needs to be good at what it was supposed to be good, but not so good against everything else. Many fix proposals have been suggested. My favorite is the one that limits the second attack of TLT to only against large and huge ships. In that way not only the Ghost only gets two TLT shots in the round (instead of 4). It also lets Miranda regen while attacking, but the likelihood of her actually dealing damage greatly decreases.
Edited by Azrapse

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On 3/2/2018 at 6:02 PM, Herowannabe said:

Miranda’s ability should read “When performing an attack with your primary weapon...”

The Phantom(1) title should read “... at the end of the Combat Phase, it [the Ghost] may perform an additional attack with a <Turret Weapon Upgrade> equipped to a docked ship.

EDIT: apparently there is a bit of (vehement) opposition to these proposed changes, more than I thought. Let’s keep discussing it, but please keep it civil. ;) thanks. 

Good ideas....as a single-seat fighter first kinda pilot, I'm not the greatest in flying Miranda and the Ghost, but they sure are everywhere and uber-tough to beat with 95% of the field. On paper and out of the gate, with pilots of equal skill, almost always guarantee a win for the player sporting them.

17 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

What is anybody accomplishing here? It's the x-wing equivalent of 'thoughts and prayers' and achieves just as much.

Isn't this an open forum? Forums are akin to talking with mates at a pub; ***** about A and put love and glory about B, banter about C, don't care about D, etc, etc.... but most of all, be it salt or joy, forum users should just let it all flow. Grab a pint, relax, the sun will come up in the morning and we'll all be better for the bi***ing or shouts of joy.

5 hours ago, Azrapse said:

So if Miranda wasn't broken back then, why is she broken right now?

  • Bombs greatly punish pursuers:
    A kiting Miranda had a chance to win by kiting with 3 speed movements and doing potshots with her TLT while regenning. It was a countdown because she had no chance to mitigate damage other than with her 1 green die and her 1 regen.
    However, being able to release bombs while kiting discourages pursuit, so it makes her much stronger.
    Luckily she can only do this twice, or 4 times with extra munitions, at the great costs of having to equip 2 bombs and Extra munitions (6 points with Seismic Charges). 
    What went wrong:
    Sabine Wren: Now Miranda can deal much more damage with her bombs, what discourages pursuers even more.
    Bomblet Generator: Now Miranda can do this not only 4 times at a cost of 6 points, but infinite times at a cost of 3 points!
    What should be done:
    Fix Sabine Wren. Fix Bomblet Generator.
  • TLT is too effective against all ships:
    TLT was designed as a fix card for Y-wings, HWK and K-wings (k-wings came out of the box overcosted by about 2-3 points). Their main purpose was to fight back high mitigation high health targets like Fat Han.
    It has good synergy with Miranda's ability, that allows her to regen and still have a chance at dealing 1 or even 2 damage per round.
    What went wrong:
    TLT is effective at fixing overcosted turret ships, at preying on high mitigation high health ships, but also against most other ships that have no way to defend against a double TLT attack because they cannot equip autothrusters.
    TLT was problematic from Wave 7 itself, when the 4 TLT archtype appeared and wiped lots of ships out of the competitive scene.
    What should be done:
    Nerf TLT a bit. It still needs to be good at what it was supposed to be good, but not so good against everything else. Many fix proposals have been suggested. My favorite is the one that limits the second attack of TLT to only against large and huge ships. In that way not only the Ghost only gets two TLT shots in the round (instead of 4). It also lets Miranda regen while attacking, but the likelihood of her actually dealing damage greatly decreases.

Well penned sir, well penned.

I'd agree that TLT is probably was not intended to be what it is on the regenning Miranda (though the crazy card came with her, which makes one wonder if that design was a late Friday night kinda thing) --or the Ghost IMO. But the turret is fine in ships that really have nothing else to offer offensively. With this in mind, perhaps the issue isn't TLT, maybe it's the ships it rides on?

Maybe errata the TLT to have the following text added, this has been a pint night implemented strategy:

Small ship only

ATTACK: Perform this attack twice (even against a ship outside your firing arc). Pilot abilities cannot be utilized on this attack.

Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

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On 3/2/2018 at 6:02 PM, Herowannabe said:

The Phantom(1) title should read “... at the end of the Combat Phase, it [the Ghost] may perform an additional attack with a <Turret Weapon Upgrade> equipped to a docked ship.

 I know this is an idea which has been floated, but honestly it's a really bad change.  It opens up the turret slot on the Ghost for something like a Dorsal or Autoblaster turret to fill the hole.  It's awkward as heck for bringing in an upgrade on a ship which is out of play, and would be incredibly confusing.  Does the attack happen from the shuttle?  From the Ghost?  Whose crew does it use?  It needlessly adds to the confusion.

A simpler change would be to put a point cost on the Ghost title.  Or add the text "double the cost of any equipped turrets" or "increase the cost of any equipped turrets by 4."  Or increasing the cost of TLT on large-base ships.  Or increasing the cost of Engine Upgrade on large base ships.  This last one would be great.  Change EU to cost 3 on small base, 5 or 6 on large base.  Engine Upgrade has ALWAYS been a hugely powerful upgrade on a large base ship, probably worth more than it's point cost.

Anyhow, having the Ghost use the Phantom's turret isn't like that.  Between the huge number of additional rules questions which would pop up, as well as the gameplay impacts of allowing a Ghost to have no donut hole, it's just not a good change.  I think some sort of a change probably ought to happen, but I can't say what.  I'm not sure any card in the Fenn/Ghost list is individually a problem, but they're mostly a problem when put together.

//

With Miranda, maybe.  I'm in favor of a more modest initial nerf, simply omitting turrets from her text (so primary, torpedo, and missile) and seeing if that's sufficient.  Or making her ability "primary weapon and secondary weapons with a cost of 5 or less."  Miranda and Missiles are both large point-cost investments, and having her ability Primary Only makes it almost blank text.  When you essentially have to give up an entire attack (1 die turret! hah!) to earn back the shield to get a 5-dice Missile shot, that might be enough balancing for Miranda.  And in many ways, it's not turret upgrades which are the problem, but TLT specifically.  Having a 1-die Autoblaster or 2-die Ion Cannon Turret is probably fair for the regeneration of a shield.  The issue is that Miranda can regen and still have a meaningful chance of dealing damage (and even two damage), and this is enabled by TLT specifically. 

At very least, I'd prefer FFG to run with such a nerf initially, and reevaluate later.  We had like 4 rounds of nerfs to the Jumpmaster, and that was good, actually.  I kinda wish there was less time between the steps, but working in smaller increments of nerfs is a better sequence than just nuking something from orbit.  I'm totally willing for the final nerf to happen, but I think it's more dramatic of a first step than I'd like.

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27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

 I know this is an idea which has been floated, but honestly it's a really bad change.  It opens up the turret slot on the Ghost for something like a Dorsal or Autoblaster turret to fill the hole.  It's awkward as heck for bringing in an upgrade on a ship which is out of play, and would be incredibly confusing.  Does the attack happen from the shuttle?  From the Ghost?  Whose crew does it use?  It needlessly adds to the confusion.

I don't see how it's confusing. It still says the Ghost is the one making the attack, and the other cards are still "out of play" since they're not referenced at all (do what the card says, not what it doesn't say). Though the cards are all on the table, so it's not like referencing an "out of play" upgrade is difficult to do. And yes, it does allow to fill in the donut hole with Dorsal, Autoblaster, Ion, etc, but you can't use the same turret twice. So at Range 3 any enemies will only be vulnerable to TLT, and at Range 1 they will only be vulnerable to the non-TLT. It adds more coverage, overlap at Range 2 happens with double TLT shots anyway, and you still have to pay for the additional coverage.

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7 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

I don't see how it's confusing. It still says the Ghost is the one making the attack, and the other cards are still "out of play" since they're not referenced at all (do what the card says, not what it doesn't say). Though the cards are all on the table, so it's not like referencing an "out of play" upgrade is difficult to do. And yes, it does allow to fill in the donut hole with Dorsal, Autoblaster, Ion, etc, but you can't use the same turret twice. So at Range 3 any enemies will only be vulnerable to TLT, and at Range 1 they will only be vulnerable to the non-TLT. It adds more coverage, overlap at Range 2 happens with double TLT shots anyway, and you still have to pay for the additional coverage.

I guarantee that there would be a bunch of folks asking questions about whether when you've got an Ezra attack shuttle with TLT, can you apply the Predator on Ezra to the shots.  And I mean, it makes intuitive sense: Ezra is on the shuttle with the Turret, why can't he use his Elite upgrade?  Because the cards don't say so.  Just go look at every G-D thread in the rules forum asking how Harpoons work, where the only unclear thing on them is when in the flow chart the condition would be applied.  A glib "do what the card says" isn't sufficient; we know folks will be confused by it.

Meanwhile, just adjusting points costs is so much saner, and an actual nerf, rather than a change which may or may not have a negative effect now.  And could just as easily have lead to a huge buff later as new cards and unintended interactions come out.  I flew the list yesterday for the first time (went 4-0 at a 15 player tournament, with some solid players there), having not played with or against it previously.  Not being able to attack twice with the same turret will sometimes be an issue, but really, a lot of the time I was able to and preferred to shoot with my Primary weapon.  Losing access to TLTs for the first shot probably wouldn't even hit the list that hard.  Maybe for really inexperienced players, but still.

I'll admit, there's something thematic about it.  But I just don't think it'd work out in the way supporters of this particular change think it would.  It's so much of a worse way to change the Ghost, compared to just putting a nerf on TLT, or nerfing points costs, or almost anything else.  I think the list needs something, but I truly think this would be a massive mistake.

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You could simply word the card so that it reads "... at the end of the Combat Phase, it [the Ghost] may perform an additional attack with a <Turret Weapon Upgrade> equipped to a docked ship as if it were equipped to the ship with the Ghost title.

I mean, opposing the proposed change because you don't like it is all well and good, but opposing it over wording is just silly. The cards can be written however they need to be to make the rules clear, and when they can't... well that's what the FAQ is for. I mean, it's not like FFG isn't used to relying on the FAQ to explain how things are supposed to work. They've done so at least once or twice before... ;)

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TLT

You cannot equip bomb, Missile or torpedo upgrade cards. 

You cannot use your primary weapon while this upgrade is equiped. 

 

I could go on (like small ship only) but these changes stop some of the worst offenders while still keeping the card pretty decent on the small carriers like Y-Wing. 

1. Miranda and Nym in particular benefit from getting way too many upgrade options. This takes those away, or they choose a different turret. 

2. Miranda can have a 5 Dice Missile but not a TLT too. Miranda can have a great weapon for her regen but loses her stupidly good bubble defence. (Bomblet and range 1 Turret). 

3. TLT costs 6, HLC Outrider costs 12 and does about the same amount of damage. If TLT is going to be a range 2-3 Turret it’s needs a true bubble so people can actually fly and play the range game against them. 

 

I dont know how you fix the Ghost. This at least means you don’t get primaries. Allowing the Ghost to get the double shot end of turn was a terrible idea, but so was making Fenn about 5-6 points undercosted (+4pts for Pilot Skill, +1-2pts for anti action ability). 

 

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