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Combat Oriented Flotillas

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Rebels have a Combat flotilla and it is called the hammerhead

/s

 

Im fine with a combat flotilla, but the example provided is terrible. Speed 2, no scatter, no HP. Can kill squads just fine, but so can my GR75. I’d rather buff a Bright Hope than fly what was suggested under nearly all circumstances. 

 

Give the Rebel one Blue or Black side dice. It will not be broken. You don’t exactly see Hammerhead Scout or CR90B spam for Ackbar lists. 

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I think the OP can be summed up as, “I want different flotillas, but I don’t want them to have any of the features that make flotillas good.”

I do agree with the 0 Squadron value, because it sets a clear difference between types of flotillas.

Speed 2 for Rebels? I don’t see a practical reason for this. Anything this fragile needs mobility for defense.

Instead of ditching scatter, ditch the second defense token. If a combat flotilla only got 1 scatter and no other defense token, it would still have the most powerful token, but run higher risk of exploding anyway.

Shifting gears,

What Imperial ship would make a good flotilla? I don’t know of any Imperial ships in the Gozanti size category. I’m sure there is something obscure in the EU, but what?

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12 minutes ago, jmswood said:

I think the OP can be summed up as, “I want different flotillas, but I don’t want them to have any of the features that make flotillas good.”

I do agree with the 0 Squadron value, because it sets a clear difference between types of flotillas.

Speed 2 for Rebels? I don’t see a practical reason for this. Anything this fragile needs mobility for defense.

Instead of ditching scatter, ditch the second defense token. If a combat flotilla only got 1 scatter and no other defense token, it would still have the most powerful token, but run higher risk of exploding anyway.

Shifting gears,

What Imperial ship would make a good flotilla? I don’t know of any Imperial ships in the Gozanti size category. I’m sure there is something obscure in the EU, but what?

Go for a C-ROC, the empire hired mercenaries and they probably bought their own ships along as well...

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I keep toying with a fully combat oriented Gozanti list.  It wouldn't be winning any tournaments, but it would be a pain in the behind to play against with so many targets and fun to fly.

Total Points: 393

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Solar Corona

Raider II (48)
• General Tagge (25)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
= 76 Points

Gozanti Assault Carriers (28)
• Admiral Montferrat (5)
• Suppressor (4)
= 37 Points

10x Gozanti Assault Carriers (28)
= 28 Points each

You'd hope for second player.  Solar Corona reduces accuracies (more likely to use scatter) and gives you deployment advantage.  Planetary Ion Cannon adds a couple of additional shots.  Opening Salvo would be a nightmare for your opponent, potentially having each Gozanti's first shot be 2 red/2black at long range.  Tagge pulls back Scatter tokens for Gozantis that lose them.  Suppressor is a distraction.  He flies in fast and basically forces the opponent to target him first.  Montferrat makes him a little more durable.  You'd fly the Gozantis in packs of 3 or so to avoid obstructing your own shots.  You'd then focus fire, using CF commands to get 2 red out the front for each shot.  Gozantis go down pretty quickly, but this is a death of a thousand cuts list.  You take out a Gozanti and you're hopefully still eating attack dice from a half dozen others in the same turn.  Tagge tries to take a dual arc at long range for 5 blue dice total and then keep away.  Opponent braces and redirects will be largely mitigated as they're taking 1-2 damage at a time.

A Cymoon with a CF command have 6 red dice out the front for 112 points.  4 Assault Gozantis with CF commands have 8 red dice out the front for the same 112 points.  I think combat flotillas are a thing now if you build your list around the idea.

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I'm trying to think out loud on this...

As far as the Rebels go, GR75's are 18/24 pts and HH's are 36/41. You definitely need to consider Ackbar's ability, or would need to errata it to prevent it working.
75's have the scatter and evade, and have no side arc weapons. HH's have Evade, Redirect, and Contain, and have one die side arc weapons. 3 vs 5 hull

So lets say you want to make a fighting flotilla, specifically something anti-squad. I don't see the harm in having something with two squad attack die (Black/Blue) and keeping the rest of the GR75's stats. I think shuffling the upgrade slots around would be a good way to change the flavor. And you probably could do that for something in the 24-36 range without obsoleting either ship. And maybe there are upgrades that can help anti-squad that come down the line that can boost the efficiency.

So then let's say you want one that's a ship fighter. Let's say you don't change Ackbar, is it really that big of a deal if you add 2 die to a 1 die attack? Especially if you don't give it a Weapon Team slot or a Turbolaser Slot. I think that's going to encroach upon the HH and CR90 price range and use and I guess this kind of flotilla is really not a flotilla but a small ship at that point. So what alternatives do we have? Maybe something that buffs local ships but isn't as much of a carrier. Perhaps something that rams for damage in a new way (suicide flotillas?).

 

Don't mind me, I'm rambling while avoiding work. :ph34r:

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My 2 cents, looking at raw stats to make a "combat" flotilla probably isn't the way we'll see them developed. 

Much more likely to see more Fleet Support Upgrades, or even some sort of FS/offensive refit combo card, e.g. allowing you to throw offensive electronic warfare around the Board - a jammed ship might have to treat all attacks as obscured. 

Flotilla type ships are very different to small combat vessels. I for one hope they keep the flotilla focused on a fleet support role, rather than an MSU swarm.

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A combat flotilla would be much more profitable if they did something unique that cannot be quantified with stats alone, such as if:

They had nasty AA dice (red for the expensive version!) and an officer slot (to put your named squadron hate officers like kallus and draven there)

They had a title that counted criticals for damage against squadrons

They had a title that said ships and squadrons cannot be treated as obstructed against this ship's attacks

They had a weapons team(!) so you could put ruthless strategists on it, and an offensive retrofit (!) so you could put one of your non-squadron value dependent boarding teams on it

Just some ideas

 

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2 hours ago, KrisWall said:

I keep toying with a fully combat oriented Gozanti list.  It wouldn't be winning any tournaments, but it would be a pain in the behind to play against with so many targets and fun to fly.

Total Points: 393

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Solar Corona

Raider II (48)
• General Tagge (25)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
= 76 Points

Gozanti Assault Carriers (28)
• Admiral Montferrat (5)
• Suppressor (4)
= 37 Points

10x Gozanti Assault Carriers (28)
= 28 Points each

You'd hope for second player.  Solar Corona reduces accuracies (more likely to use scatter) and gives you deployment advantage.  Planetary Ion Cannon adds a couple of additional shots.  Opening Salvo would be a nightmare for your opponent, potentially having each Gozanti's first shot be 2 red/2black at long range.  Tagge pulls back Scatter tokens for Gozantis that lose them.  Suppressor is a distraction.  He flies in fast and basically forces the opponent to target him first.  Montferrat makes him a little more durable.  You'd fly the Gozantis in packs of 3 or so to avoid obstructing your own shots.  You'd then focus fire, using CF commands to get 2 red out the front for each shot.  Gozantis go down pretty quickly, but this is a death of a thousand cuts list.  You take out a Gozanti and you're hopefully still eating attack dice from a half dozen others in the same turn.  Tagge tries to take a dual arc at long range for 5 blue dice total and then keep away.  Opponent braces and redirects will be largely mitigated as they're taking 1-2 damage at a time.

A Cymoon with a CF command have 6 red dice out the front for 112 points.  4 Assault Gozantis with CF commands have 8 red dice out the front for the same 112 points.  I think combat flotillas are a thing now if you build your list around the idea.

As fun as that would be...

Cracken is a thing.  Which makes a full combat flotilla game risk a matchup loss

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I suppose the whole point was to introduce a "new" class of ship  (technically these would still be flotillas) that fit into a specific role.  The original proposed "stats" were meant to represent that these units MUST remain cheap, so sacrifices have to be made.  Otherwise, if they don't have any inherent weaknesses they would need to be point costed much higher.  At that point, just create a new regular ship.  For instance, speed 2 rebel flotilla with the proposed dice would have to bump cost up at least 10 points to move it to speed three.  Now it costs as much as a regular small ship, and shold just be a regular ship, so nothing special about it.  I chose to give significant weaknesses because their proposed point cost is so low.  Anything new added to the game that seems incredibly versatile and low in point cost creates an imbalance and power creep.  Just my .02.  LOL 

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10 hours ago, Onidsen said:

As fun as that would be...

Cracken is a thing.  Which makes a full combat flotilla game risk a matchup loss

Absolutely agreed.  Cracken is an hard counter.  At that point, you'd probably still go for second player and try to win by forcing a tie...  which would admittedly be pretty hard.  Stack Nav commands the entire game and just try to stay away from the enemy.  This was more of a thought exercise.  It's also not like most people play Cracken.  I think you could safely go to an event and expect that you'd probably not see a Cracken matchup.

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4 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Absolutely agreed.  Cracken is an hard counter.  At that point, you'd probably still go for second player and try to win by forcing a tie...  which would admittedly be pretty hard.  Stack Nav commands the entire game and just try to stay away from the enemy.  This was more of a thought exercise.  It's also not like most people play Cracken.  I think you could safely go to an event and expect that you'd probably not see a Cracken matchup.

Not here it seems ?

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17 hours ago, Jedirev said:

My 2 cents, looking at raw stats to make a "combat" flotilla probably isn't the way we'll see them developed. 

Much more likely to see more Fleet Support Upgrades, or even some sort of FS/offensive refit combo card, e.g. allowing you to throw offensive electronic warfare around the Board - a jammed ship might have to treat all attacks as obscured. 

http://kdyards.com/upgrades.view.php?id=5274

made this some days ago

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1 hour ago, Captain_Nemo said:

That looks very powerful... but, yeah, is the sort of effect I think is more suitable for a combat support flotilla. Maybe a targeted jam on a specific intel/relay squadron. A bubble effect, even at 10pts, is monstrous. 

As people are pointing out, Cracken is a hard counter to small attack pool MSUs. But even with that, I'm just not sold on "Combat" needing to mean attack dice, even for a thought exercise. 

Edited by Jedirev

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