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LeatherPants

Combat Oriented Flotillas

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So, Flotillas are a thing.  Currently, there is only a single Flotilla type available for each faction, and both pretty much serve the same role.

Enter the "Combat" Flotilla...

"Combat" flotillas should share the same weaknesses as all other Flotillas (same ruleset).  However, instead of being mostly about fleet supports, these Flotillas are more about adding to combat as well as adding a cheap activation.

For starters, both Rebel and Imperial "combat" flotillas would not have Scatter as a defense, replace the Rebel scatter with a redirect, and the imperial with a brace.  Both versions have 5 total shields or less (Rebel, 2-2-1...  Imperial 2/1/1, for instance).

Hull remains 3 for both (they're little!)

Attack Dice:  Rebel, 1 red up front, 1 black out the back, 2 blue for Flak.  Imperial, 2 blue in front, 1 black and 1 blue sides, 1 blue rear, 1 black flak.  Rebel version fills the gap for anti-squadron "on the cheap", Imperial adds a more "ship on ship" threat for cheap.

Upgrades:  no fleet supports, add a turbolaser for rebel and an ordnance for imperial (may vary between versions "A" and "B" for each)

Stats:  Something like Command 1, Squadrons 1 (or 0!  Something TOTALLY new!), Engineering 2

Costing:  Roughly 24ish points for Rebels, 26ish points for Imperial.

Movement:  Ouch...  put the Rebel at max speed 2 (2, 0/1) and Imperial at speed 3 (1, 0/1, 1/0/1)

Titles:  Rebel titles would have one enhancing anti-squadron, the other trying to make it viable against other ships (attack from same arc twice, even at the same ship/hull zone perhaps).  Imperial would have one that negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped, the other a crappy fix to it's squadron command of 0 (something that gives it 2+ squadron activations, or better/uniquely something that let's it activate a single squadron with a special boost of some kind).

Is everyone Happy?  Hard to say...  Flotillas are both hated and loved, depending on your play style.  These sample Flotillas create a new-ish role for the littlest of ships, sort of making them a "super squadron" offensively, but eliminating their HUGE defensive advantage of the Scatter defense.  Cheap activation's are great, but when they are EXTREMELY squishy it presents a tough choice....

Overall thoughts? 

  

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Would never be used. 

For a few points less,  both factions can get much more survivability of out of a Combat Gr75 or gozanti and still throw a comparable attack pool. 

You're pretty much stuck between getting a ship thats more killable than a regular flotilla but also less powerful than a cr90b or raider 1

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1 minute ago, Englishpete said:

The 23 and 28 point Gozantis are perfectly capable as a combat option.

He's not kidding. I've seen an Assault Gozanti roll 4 damage and threaten to wipe an ISD's front shields. Heck, I've blown up Demolisher with a 25-point Comms Net Gozanti's side arc +Most Wanted. With a little luck, they can do some damage. I've also heard of weird plans with Combat GR-75s with Dcaps under Sato to fire 2 black dice at long range, but... why?

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8 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

He's not kidding. I've seen an Assault Gozanti roll 4 damage and threaten to wipe an ISD's front shields. Heck, I've blown up Demolisher with a 25-point Comms Net Gozanti's side arc +Most Wanted. With a little luck, they can do some damage. I've also heard of weird plans with Combat GR-75s with Dcaps under Sato to fire 2 black dice at long range, but... why?

I've wanted to field a cymoon + 9 red die G's using con fire each round. we'll see. 

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14 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

I've wanted to field a cymoon + 9 red die G's using con fire each round. we'll see. 

It's like bomber damage but from long range. Just hope you don't run into any MSU fleet ever.

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I hear "never get used", but that is the point of a balanced alternative.  If there is an "obvious" choice, then it WILL always get used (hello, Demolisher).  I can almost guarantee that there will be call of OP (a flotilla with External Racks??), as well as already mentioned "no one would use them" (startlingly similar the the feeling when the "original" flotillas showed up, and it took an entire wave for at least one to become a nearly auto-include in most lists).  More combat activations on the cheap will appeal to some players, and others will see it as too easily destroyed for it's point cost.  Not dis-similar to the debate on whether raid tokens are a viable strategy or a total waste of points....

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32 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

He's not kidding. I've seen an Assault Gozanti roll 4 damage and threaten to wipe an ISD's front shields. Heck, I've blown up Demolisher with a 25-point Comms Net Gozanti's side arc +Most Wanted. With a little luck, they can do some damage. I've also heard of weird plans with Combat GR-75s with Dcaps under Sato to fire 2 black dice at long range, but... why?

Exactly, "but why?"  Enter the combat flotilla.  Dangerous in it's own way, but vulnerable like anything else.  Every list shouldn't have them, because they aren't auto-include.  You plan around them, or you don't include them.  I suppose they are a risky "all-in" addition to an MSU list...  yep, pretty flimsy...  but if you can get them to "sing", then hallelujah!   LOL 

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35 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

So, Flotillas are a thing.  Currently, there is only a single Flotilla type available for each faction, and both pretty much serve the same role.

Enter the "Combat" Flotilla...

"Combat" flotillas should share the same weaknesses as all other Flotillas (same ruleset).  However, instead of being mostly about fleet supports, these Flotillas are more about adding to combat as well as adding a cheap activation.

For starters, both Rebel and Imperial "combat" flotillas would not have Scatter as a defense, replace the Rebel scatter with a redirect, and the imperial with a brace.  Both versions have 5 total shields or less (Rebel, 2-2-1...  Imperial 2/1/1, for instance).

Hull remains 3 for both (they're little!)

Attack Dice:  Rebel, 1 red up front, 1 black out the back, 2 blue for Flak.  Imperial, 2 blue in front, 1 black and 1 blue sides, 1 blue rear, 1 black flak.  Rebel version fills the gap for anti-squadron "on the cheap", Imperial adds a more "ship on ship" threat for cheap.

Upgrades:  no fleet supports, add a turbolaser for rebel and an ordnance for imperial (may vary between versions "A" and "B" for each)

Stats:  Something like Command 1, Squadrons 1 (or 0!  Something TOTALLY new!), Engineering 2

Costing:  Roughly 24ish points for Rebels, 26ish points for Imperial.

Movement:  Ouch...  put the Rebel at max speed 2 (2, 0/1) and Imperial at speed 3 (1, 0/1, 1/0/1)

Titles:  Rebel titles would have one enhancing anti-squadron, the other trying to make it viable against other ships (attack from same arc twice, even at the same ship/hull zone perhaps).  Imperial would have one that negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped, the other a crappy fix to it's squadron command of 0 (something that gives it 2+ squadron activations, or better/uniquely something that let's it activate a single squadron with a special boost of some kind).

Is everyone Happy?  Hard to say...  Flotillas are both hated and loved, depending on your play style.  These sample Flotillas create a new-ish role for the littlest of ships, sort of making them a "super squadron" offensively, but eliminating their HUGE defensive advantage of the Scatter defense.  Cheap activation's are great, but when they are EXTREMELY squishy it presents a tough choice....

Overall thoughts? 

  

Lets see if I get this right
Rebel
2 on front, 2 on each side, and one out back.
Hull 3
1 red on front, none out side (?), and 1 black out the back, with 2 blue AA.
A turbolaser upgrade spot (only one?)
Command 1, Squadrons 1 or maybe 0 (kind of like this idea), and engineering of 2
Cost 24 points or so.
Speed two, two clicks at speed one 0/1 click at speed two.
Titles A - enhancing anti-squadron B- trying to make it viable against other ships

Well first thought is that does not look to be much of a combat ship at all to me, seven shields looks to be a lot to me. If the reason for not giving it any attack out the side is so that Ackbar can not give it red dice than you will not be able to give it a turbolaser upgrade or how do you stop someone from adding enhanced armament? The slow speed does not feel right to me for two reasons, first just does not feel right for the rebels, and second maybe I am looking at "combat flotillas" wrong, but I am looking at them as PT boats so should be fast.

Empire
Shields 2 on front, 1 each side, and 1 on the back.
3 Hull
2 blue dice on front, 1 black and blue on each side, and 1 blue for rear, with one black AA.
One ordnance upgrade (again only upgrade?)
A turbolaser upgrade spot (only one?)
Command 1, Squadrons 1 or maybe 0 (still kind of like this idea), and engineering of 2
Costing about 26 points
Movement, speed 3 1 click at one, 0/1 click at two, and 1/0/1 click at three.
Titles A- negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped B- something to do with squadrons.
What do you mean "... negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped" are you saying that it can ram and do damage? One time only, or all the time?

This feels more combat oriented, but also just feels like it is trying to be a smaller copy of the other ships that they already have just less effective, a ordnance upgrade with only using one black dice does not sound that effective to me, but I am also all about the red dice so may be missing something with the ordnance upgrade.

I am one in the camp of not liking flotillas right now, mostly due to the fact that they just do not feel like they should be include in the empire fleet, and the rebel ones should not be as effective as they are for as few points as they cost. I see the current flotillas as empire side a customs/coast guard cutter, and the rebels as converted super light cargo ship/fishing trawler so should not be able to do as much as it does. But as I said I do not like them so I am likely biased. I am not against the idea of flotillas but think that they need to be more different than they are. Maybe something like no shields or a  one on the front only and with all the use once cards coming out now a special flotilla only combat card that it gets two or maybe three of to use to attack as it has no attack other than that, with maybe one AA dice.

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52 minutes ago, Irokenics said:

Would never be used. 

For a few points less,  both factions can get much more survivability of out of a Combat Gr75 or gozanti and still throw a comparable attack pool. 

You're pretty much stuck between getting a ship thats more killable than a regular flotilla but also less powerful than a cr90b or raider 1

Exactly!  Again, if one option is obviously far superior to the other, then it's probably a bad addition to the game.  I see what you're saying in terms of attack pool, but consider how much a Gozatti should cost with nearly doubled attack dice (the theoretical example I gave).  You lose some of what the Gozatti offers obviously (or why make a new ship?), and give an alternative job to your cheap activations.  Again, many players will LOVE more combat activations - even weak ones! - and others will see how easy if MIGHT be to swat those down.  :)

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I think combat flotillas are a fun idea. I mean if you're going to pad activations anyways, you may as well provide options. 

I think something that is 2 die vs squads but maybe only one die vs ships is a possibility. Especially if the equipment slots help to carry out that mission as well.

I think anti ship focused ships should be cheaper than the Hammerheads and Raiders but they clearly can't be outfitted to be better entirely. I also don't think you need to dismiss the idea of it running with a scatter. 

I'll leave the details for people way smarter than I. 

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15 minutes ago, CDAT said:

Lets see if I get this right
Rebel
2 on front, 2 on each side, and one out back.
Hull 3
1 red on front, none out side (?), and 1 black out the back, with 2 blue AA.
A turbolaser upgrade spot (only one?)
Command 1, Squadrons 1 or maybe 0 (kind of like this idea), and engineering of 2
Cost 24 points or so.
Speed two, two clicks at speed one 0/1 click at speed two.
Titles A - enhancing anti-squadron B- trying to make it viable against other ships

Well first thought is that does not look to be much of a combat ship at all to me, seven shields looks to be a lot to me. If the reason for not giving it any attack out the side is so that Ackbar can not give it red dice than you will not be able to give it a turbolaser upgrade or how do you stop someone from adding enhanced armament? The slow speed does not feel right to me for two reasons, first just does not feel right for the rebels, and second maybe I am looking at "combat flotillas" wrong, but I am looking at them as PT boats so should be fast.

Empire
Shields 2 on front, 1 each side, and 1 on the back.
3 Hull
2 blue dice on front, 1 black and blue on each side, and 1 blue for rear, with one black AA.
One ordnance upgrade (again only upgrade?)
A turbolaser upgrade spot (only one?)
Command 1, Squadrons 1 or maybe 0 (still kind of like this idea), and engineering of 2
Costing about 26 points
Movement, speed 3 1 click at one, 0/1 click at two, and 1/0/1 click at three.
Titles A- negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped B- something to do with squadrons.
What do you mean "... negates flotillas not giving a damage card when overlapped" are you saying that it can ram and do damage? One time only, or all the time?

This feels more combat oriented, but also just feels like it is trying to be a smaller copy of the other ships that they already have just less effective, a ordnance upgrade with only using one black dice does not sound that effective to me, but I am also all about the red dice so may be missing something with the ordnance upgrade.

I am one in the camp of not liking flotillas right now, mostly due to the fact that they just do not feel like they should be include in the empire fleet, and the rebel ones should not be as effective as they are for as few points as they cost. I see the current flotillas as empire side a customs/coast guard cutter, and the rebels as converted super light cargo ship/fishing trawler so should not be able to do as much as it does. But as I said I do not like them so I am likely biased. I am not against the idea of flotillas but think that they need to be more different than they are. Maybe something like no shields or a  one on the front only and with all the use once cards coming out now a special flotilla only combat card that it gets two or maybe three of to use to attack as it has no attack other than that, with maybe one AA dice.

You got it right.  The no side dice for Rebels are anti-Ackbar.  You CAN add Enhanced Armaments to use him, but now your super-flimsy ship just got CR90 or more expensive (and you still don't have a scatter).

Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is that ships such as there are NOT MEANT to be game changing elements.  Their point cost is low, as they are weak in many ways, but useful in others.  It sort of adds an element to the game that doesn't already exist.  They also don't contribute to "power creep", that EVERYONE hates (obvious because the main detractions are that they sound too weak.  LOL).

  

Edited by LeatherPants

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2 minutes ago, Stasy said:

I think combat flotillas are a fun idea. I mean if you're going to pad activations anyways, you may as well provide options. 

I think something that is 2 die vs squads but maybe only one die vs ships is a possibility. Especially if the equipment slots help to carry out that mission as well.

I think anti ship focused ships should be cheaper than the Hammerheads and Raiders but they clearly can't be outfitted to be better entirely. I also don't think you need to dismiss the idea of it running with a scatter. 

I'll leave the details for people way smarter than I. 

I think you've said it best.  "Combat Flotillas" are, at the core, CHEAP ships.   NOT game changers.  They are meant to mildly modify the role of a typical flotilla, not replace Battleships or even dedicated "Killer" small ships (ie.  Gladiator, MC30, etc.)

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3 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

You got it right.  The no side dice for Rebe; are anti-Ackbar.  You CAN add Enhanced Armaments to use him, but now your super-flimsy ship just got CR90 or more expensive (and you still don't have a scatter).

Probably the most important thing to keep in mind is that ships such as there are NOT MEANT to be game changing elements.  Their point cost is low, as they are weak in many ways, but useful in others.  It sort of adds an element to the game that doesn't already exist.  They also don't contribute to "power creep", that EVERYONE hates (obvious because the main detractions are that they sound too weak.  LOL).

  

I could also see something like a fire ship for the rebels.

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10 minutes ago, CDAT said:

I could also see something like a fire ship for the rebels.

Love it!  I really want to see alternatives to standard play, not OP things that everyone is going to ***** about

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1 hour ago, dominosfleet said:

I've wanted to field a cymoon + 9 red die G's using con fire each round. we'll see. 

It's a legit list. The Gs become the Anvil while the cymoon is the hammer.

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I get your loath of flotillas, perhaps in your meta they are spammed even more that usual.   The point of the "combat flotilla" is to reduce what is currently "flotilla spam" (cheap squadron activations, scatter for bodyguard duty, etc.) and make this class of ship an actual combat unit, and not the usual squadron-pushing (give them 0 squadron Value!!!) activation padders.   :D

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For rebles there not much point difference with Hammer Heads.

But I feel the issue with current flotillas is scatter. I played around awhile back with changing scatter to a reverae evade. Ie close range you made them reroll  Mid range same long range nothing. Was to simulate big guns hitting smaller targets. This worked fairly well. 

I don't beleave we would have half the issue with transporta if there was no scatter?

As for combat flotillas if it is different to what we have lets have a go.

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