Jump to content
AT Leader

Setup Question

Recommended Posts

I recently read that you are not allowed to use anything beyond R1 during setup. Is this in the tournament regulations or somewhere else? I wasn't aware of this and have been using a R3 range ruler during set-up since forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, from the X-Wing Tournament Regulations.  Step 6 of the Game Setup Section.

Quote

Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules. Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player's edge.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes, people use the full-length ruler on the board to ensure that their ship won't hit a nearby obstacle.  If they do, you're within your rights to ask them to remove the ship from the board, then replace it with their range ruler within the R1 area.  However, it does set a rather tense "rules lawyering" atmosphere to the game right at the outset, which can come back to bite you in the butt.

A better solution, I think, is to ask them to please not use their range ruler outside of R1 for subsequent ship placement, just to keep things on the up-and-up... that way, they may get their first "cheat," but don't do further ones.

And of course, if they make a stink about it being legal and that you are wrong, it's time to call the Judge. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2018 at 9:31 AM, AT Leader said:

Ok! Thanks! Know I k now where to find it. Don't like it as I don't feel like it gives significant information then I already have, but a rule-follower I will be!

Also, page 17 of the Rules Reference, under Setup:

Quote

5. Place Forces: The players place their ships into the play area in order from lowest pilot skill to highest pilot skill. If multiple ships tie in pilot skill, the player with initiative places his ships with that pilot skill first. Ships must be placed within Range 1 of their player’s edge.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 12:50 PM, joeshmoe554 said:

Yep, from the X-Wing Tournament Regulations.  Step 6 of the Game Setup Section.

 

yet, check out the learn to play rules p.4 notice the diagram.

The rules reference simply states: "5. Place Forces: The players place their ships into the play area in order from lowest pilot skill to highest pilot skill. If multiple ships tie in pilot skill, the player with initiative places his ships with that pilot skill first. Ships must be placed within Range 1 of their player’s edge." p17

It does not say that the ruler has to have ranges beyond 1 off the board.

Now the Tournament Regulations state "6. Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules. Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge. " p5

However again this does not dictate how the ruler is used.

As stated, someone could use placing the ruler fully on the board to garner more information, which would be considered bad form. And you can ask that they redeploy or call a judge. But if they argue that they do not have to only place up to range 1 of the ruler on the board, they are technically correct.

Personally I do not care, this to me is little different than people using checking for Target Lock to garner more information than simply if the ship they are attempting to lock is in range. My game play is not dependent on whether or not my opponent can tell if a rock is range 2.22227777799999 from the edge of the board or not when he places.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

Now the Tournament Regulations state "6. Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules. Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge. " p5

However again this does not dictate how the ruler is used.

 

You literally quoted the part where it does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You literally quoted the part where it does.

It does not say they may not place the ruler fully on the table. Only that they may not measure from object to object (except within range 1 of that players edge). Yes its minutia but still valid. Take a look at the setup diagram in the learn to play rules... it shows the ruler fully on the table.

Edited by SkullNBones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Players cannot measure except within range 1 of that player's edge.

It literally says you cannot measure outside range 1 of your edge.

It's not phrased positively, but that doesn't stop it saying that.

however, it literally does not say they can not play objects outside range 1, only that they can not measure with objects outside range 1. So you are NOT prevented from placing the ruler fully on the table. You however can not use said ruler to measure beyond range 1. Now can this be abused...yes (as I stated). But even their (FFG's) own diagram shows the ruler fully on the table. I get your point, but the RAW do not prevent it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, thespaceinvader said:

By definition, placing a ruler on the table is measuring with it.  It's a ruler.  As soon as it hits the table you're gaining information.

RAI, not RAW...sorry, you are right that it is bad form and that it can be abused as all get out. But nothing Specifically, prevent a player from doing so, and again the illustration by the company itself depicts the ruler fully on the table.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SkullNBones said:

RAI, not RAW...sorry, you are right that it is bad form and that it can be abused as all get out. But nothing Specifically, prevent a player from doing so, and again the illustration by the company itself depicts the ruler fully on the table.
 

There are no images in the tournament rules, which is where this text is drawn from. 

THe Learn to Play doesn't have the same restriction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There are no images in the tournament rules, which is where this text is drawn from. 

THe Learn to Play doesn't have the same restriction.

All official source material is valid. The Rules reference and Tournament Regulations do not counter the learn to play rules (mechanically). And again, even using just the Tournament Regulations, it still states that a player may not measure with objects beyond range 1, but does not say they may not place objects beyond range 1 of their edge. So again, nothing forbids the ruler from being fully placed on the board. That restriction is RAI, not RAW. 

Again, could it be abused... yes, is it bad form... who cares, if your ability to play a game (of X-Wing) and have fun (win or loose) depends on whether your opponent placed a range ruler on the board (fully or not) at set up, means you have other issues that should be addressed before ever sitting down to play, but that (the supposition on having a good game or not) is fully my humble opinion.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, they do.

The tournament regs overrule the learn to play guide with their own setup instructions:

Tournaments supported by the Organized Play (“OP”) program for the Star Wars™: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game, sponsored by Fantasy Flight Games (“FFG”) and its international partners, follow the rules provided in this document.

Do whatever you want outside an FFG OP tourney- you're quite right that in that context, the normal setup rules apply, though normal convention is to ignore the bit that lets you change sides after setup, because it's a giant and pointless hassle.

If you're in such a tournament, keep everything inside range 1 of your edge at all times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SkullNBones said:

All official source material is valid. The Rules reference and Tournament Regulations do not counter the learn to play rules (mechanically). 

Golden Rules, page 1 of the RRG:

"If a rule in this guide contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the rule in this guide takes priority."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:55 PM, skotothalamos said:

Golden Rules, page 1 of the RRG:

"If a rule in this guide contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the rule in this guide takes priority."

agreed, however, the tournament rulebooks statement does not forbid placing of the ruler fully on the table. It only forbids measuring to objects outside range 1 of the players edge. Believe it or not these are two very different things.

Can you measure something out of range 1 by putting the ruler fully on the table...yes, just like I can measure range to three different ships by attempting to target lock one of them that I know is outside range. However I can also place the ruler on the table no where near another object and gain no information.

SO again RAW: does not forbid placing the ruler fully on the table.
quoted here again from the tournament regulations:  "6. Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules. Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge. " p5
What is forbidden is any physical object within range 1 of the players edge other than maneuver templates and range rulers. There is NOTHING that forbids those templates or objects from extending beyond range one, only that any measurements gained from them must be within range 1.  


RAI: yes, people prevent you from doing so because it is unnecessary and is easily abused. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

agreed, however, the tournament rulebooks statement does not forbid placing of the ruler fully on the table. It only forbids measuring to objects outside range 1 of the players edge. Believe it or not these are two very different things.

"Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge."

(emphasis mine)

a range three ruler going beyond range 1 of your edge is measuring distance and is a physical object.

Edited by skotothalamos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

"Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge."

(emphasis mine)

a range three ruler going beyond range 1 of your edge is measuring distance and is a physical object.

not necessarily, see if you can follow these two examples:

1) placing an object on the board does not infer that the object is automatically doing something. Placing a range ruler against one's own edge during set up (with the remained of the ruler extending beyond) does not automatically measure anything. It is simply an physical object laying on another one. What you DO with that object in relation to other objects is the act of measuring.
2) technically if I were to place the ruler completely on the board with its range 1 touching my board edge to deploy my ship on the far left or right of the board (where no obstacle is permitted to be within range 2 of, the part of the range ruler extending beyond my deployment zone (range 1 of my edge) is not measuring anything, other than my deployment zone.

The above aside:

The RAW do not forbid an object from extending beyond range 1 of a players deploy area... rather they forbid using an object to measure with said object (there is a distinct difference in definition). SO once again, where I agree with RAI, until RAW change, if someone pushed the point (no reason too really) then they are in fact VALID and should be permitted to lay the ruler out to the full length on the board (as depicted in the learn to play rules, diagram on p4). 

I am not debating whether a player can measure beyond range 1 during setup...no they can not, the RAW forbids it, however the RAW does not forbid placing objects beyond range 1. That is purely interpretation.

Edited by SkullNBones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Within" is a defined game term, important independent sentence in red.

Quote

“At” vs. “Within”

“At” means the closest part of the target’s base touches that range section. For example, when attacking a ship whose base touches both Range 2 and Range 3, that ship is at Range 2. “Within” means wholly within. For example, normal tournament deployment is “within Range 1 of the table edge.”

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures FAQ v4.4.1 Effective 01.22.2018 | page 5

So when the rules say "Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge." The range rulers and maneuver templates must be "wholly within" Range 1 of that player's edge. So, to be clear, the RAW do explicitly forbid placing objects beyond Range 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

"Within" is a defined game term, important independent sentence in red.

So when the rules say "Players cannot measure distance and spacing with physical objects during setup except when using range rulers and maneuver templates within Range 1 of that player’s edge." The range rulers and maneuver templates must be "wholly within" Range 1 of that player's edge. So, to be clear, the RAW do explicitly forbid placing objects beyond Range 1.

Again, yes, I do not refute that the rules prevent measuring beyond range 1. You are only permitted to measure within range 1 of your edge. HOWEVER, placing an object is not by every definition of the word the same as measuring with it. Therefore the rules as written, do NOT prevent placing of objects so that they extend beyond range 1, only that you can NOT measure beyond range 1. These are not one and the same actions. So until the rules state, that no objects (other than obstacles and ships (with the ability to do so)) can be placed in the play areas beyond range 1 of the starting edge during set up. You can by letter of the law (RAW) lay a range ruler so that it extends beyond range 1.

Ethical, maybe not, but still permissible RAW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...