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Bucho

soak....really?

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5 minutes ago, Tabulazero said:

That it looks too much like a mechanism to mitigate the lethality of the game which actually does not rely on or enhance the narration.

It's clumsy but it is easy.

Seemed like the OP was more concerned with the word used than any mechanical concept.

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2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Seemed like the OP was more concerned with the word used than any mechanical concept.

I neither like the term nor the concept. Why do I always picture people throwing buckets of water at my characters ?

I understand what "soak" does from a game design standpoint and why it is there. I simply find it inelegant.

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6 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Seemed like the OP was more concerned with the word used than any mechanical concept.

Well at the end of the day the mechanics need to work, but when I've barely taken a look at it and am seeing red flags.... See where I'm going here.

Edited by Bucho

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11 minutes ago, Bucho said:

Well at the end of the day the mechanics need to work, but when I've barely taken a look at it and am seeing red flag.... See where I'm going here.

No I don't. Is your issue with the the damage reduction mechanic or the name of the damage reduction mechanic? Many games have a damage reduction mechanic so if the issue is with that I would like more information. Does it not fit the milieu you wish to capture? I am unfamiliar with Descent beyond that it is a game. 

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4 hours ago, Tabulazero said:

I neither like the term nor the concept. Why do I always picture people throwing buckets of water at my characters ?

I understand what "soak" does from a game design standpoint and why it is there. I simply find it inelegant.

I don’t see how it is inelegant, save for the name itself (which I have always found a little silly as a term for damage reduction). Armor and physical toughness reduce damage. 

20 minutes ago, Bucho said:

Well at the end of the day the mechanics need to work, but when I've barely taken a look at it and am seeing red flag.... See where I'm going here.

What is the red flag? Because you are apparently seeing something most of the rest of us have missed (even after five years of playing Star Wars using essentially the same system).

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On 2/28/2018 at 11:42 PM, Simon Retold said:

27 years. I mean, for those who played White Wolf’s Vampire: The Masquerade or other World of Darkness games. Not that, um, I was one of those weeeeeird people

Not super familiar with White Wolf but this right because duh:

Quote

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Soak

In the Storytelling System, Soak was replaced with Defense for Characters and Durability for objects.

 

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Indeed. In the Storytelling System, which was based on the Storyteller System, which was the original system used in the World of Darkness games. Soak was part of those games for 13 years before it was replaced by Defense in the 2004 revamp of the system. 

Edited by Simon Retold

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13 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

As opposed to a different solution that you have in mind?

Exactly. Thaco has always been terrible. The defense dice coupled with soak is a great abstraction of what armor really does. The only tiny problem I have with it (nothing is perfect) is that it doesn't have a ton of granularity.

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4 minutes ago, Souppilgrim said:

... The defense dice coupled with soak is a great abstraction of what armor really does. The only tiny problem I have with it (nothing is perfect) is that it doesn't have a ton of granularity.

I think for me, the granularity comes from the Critical Hits/Injuries tables. And I like that they are concise things that I can choose to activate or just leave alone.  Sometimes I just want pulp, little granularity :)

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3 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I think for me, the granularity comes from the Critical Hits/Injuries tables. And I like that they are concise things that I can choose to activate or just leave alone.  Sometimes I just want pulp, little granularity :)

Oh sure, I think it's a good system. There are just trade offs for anything.  Too much granularity and its going to become unwieldy and samey feeling, not enough granularity and it becomes binary, the Genesys system tries for the strengths of both while trying to reduce the flaws of both.

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1 hour ago, Swordbreaker said:

I soak up damage, I reduce damage, I mitigate damage, I tank damage, I neutralize damage, I diffract damage, I really don't think it matters a whit.

I absorb damage... the list goes on.

I don't mind the term because it's much more concise than 'Damage insert choice word for reductionthat other systems employ.

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3 hours ago, Souppilgrim said:

Exactly. Thaco has always been terrible. 

Hey, compared to the to-hit tables in 1st ed AD&D, thaco was a miracle, choirs of angels singing in the background, godsend. It’s only compared to absolutely everything that came after it that it looks clunky and “what were they thinking!”-ish

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1 hour ago, ghatt said:

I absorb damage... the list goes on.

I don't mind the term because it's much more concise than 'Damage insert choice word for reductionthat other systems employ.

How about armor then or any of the alternatives that didn't involve damage? We've quickly been able to come up with  numerous alternatives,  does anyone think that if the list we made got focus grouped soak would come out as the top pick?

Here's the thing I'm a bit gun shy about FFG at this point having watched them make numerous bizarre design choices lately.  So when I don't get farther than promotional photos before face palming....   I mean people who are familiar with this game is it legitimately well thought out or as slapped together as it seems at first glance?

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7 minutes ago, Bucho said:

How about armor then or any of the alternatives that didn't involve damage? We've quickly been able to come up with  numerous alternatives,  does anyone think that if the list we made got focus grouped soak would come out as the top pick?

Here's the thing I'm a bit gun shy about FFG at this point having watched them make numerous bizarre design choices lately.  So when I don't get farther than promotional photos before face palming....   I mean people who are familiar with this game is it legitimately well thought out or as slapped together as it seems at first glance?

I'm at a loss as to how the word choice of one mechanism matters at all, let alone how the semantics would mean anything about the gameplay.

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On 2/28/2018 at 9:06 PM, TheSourceHD said:

Dang you beat me to it. Vampire The Masquerade was my first. I ran a Vampire game for a little over 2 years until I joined the Military. It seems I've always related soak to damage in games. My love of Vampire is most likely why the Narrative Dice System felt just right my first play through.

Ars Magic used the term even before V:tM.

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39 minutes ago, Bucho said:

How about armor then or any of the alternatives that didn't involve damage? We've quickly been able to come up with  numerous alternatives,  does anyone think that if the list we made got focus grouped soak would come out as the top pick?

Here's the thing I'm a bit gun shy about FFG at this point having watched them make numerous bizarre design choices lately.  So when I don't get farther than promotional photos before face palming....   I mean people who are familiar with this game is it legitimately well thought out or as slapped together as it seems at first glance?

It might be helpful if you listed some of the mechanics in the game you find questionable and detail why you find them that way.  I'm sure you know that Genesys is a generic, improved, version of the Star Wars role playing game from FFG.  SWRPG is, as far as I know, a well regarded and reasonably popular game.  I don't think either game is perfect, and any game has to compromise between various competing traits (e.g. detail vs simplicity).

As for "soak", it is a common enough word, and seems perfectly applicable.  You would be hard pressed to find an English speaking gamer who didn't understand immediately what it meant.  

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Does this game work? Definitely.

Is it fun? Absolutely.

Are there holes/problems in the system? Every system has problems for every player, what those actual problems are though depends who you ask, what type of games you have previously played and what your group expect from a game.

You are the first I have ever heard complain about Soak either as a name or a mechanic, so there’s no telling what other parts of the system you will dislike, or what parts you will thoroughly enjoy.

The simple fact that it wasn’t the dice that you reacted to first is a good sign. Be aware though that the Genesis core book really is a tool box. There’s no one setting all ready to go, any game you want to play will require at least a couple of hours of prep (or better still a session zero with your players) to get the basics lined up.

Overall there’s a core system in the book, with a bunch of modular options to add on for different settings. The core rules are a slightly revised version of rules from Star Wars that have been in constant heavy use for over 5 years. They are definitely solid, although traditional d20 players typically need some help to adjust.

If you want a game that runs straight from the book then the Realms of Terrinoth (fantasy setting) book will be what you need, and likely at least the PDF of the core book.

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14 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Does this game work? Definitely.

Is it fun? Absolutely.

A group of us recently sat down for a game.  We were all experienced with Star Wars, and some of us had read the Genesys book. 

Only the GM was familiar with the setting, however.  He described some races, and within half an hour we all had reasonably fleshed out fantasy characters at the gates of some magically intense glass-walled city.  I love how flexible this generic system really is.  I can't imagine starting a game as easily as this with GURPS, for example.

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Just now, Foghorn said:

This thread is giving me flashbacks to my Earthdawn game where one of the players couldn't help but giggle incessantly whenever the warrior used his "Avoid Blow" talent.

A friend of mine has refused to play Savage Worlds for 8-9 years now because of the word “Benny”. 

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