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Pollux85

The Anti-Hero Guide

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For a long time I wondered why there was no guide on these Boards for the IP Player decks, Agenda sets, or for units the way that there are for the Rebel heroes. It seemed to always be something that really hindered a new Imperial Player. At least, I know it hindered me. The only real explanation I could find was that everyone said the "best" deck depended so much on what heroes the Rebel picked. Unless you pick Subversive Tactics, which ruins the fun for everyone. 

So I thought a different way to go about this was for us to outline what all the Rebels weaknesses are in one place. Obviously there are some basics, like heroes with a white die hate red die attacks, and heroes with low endurance hate bleed effects, but I wanted to go a bit deeper. If you really want to go toe to toe with Diala and kill her as quick as possible, what unit or combination of units would you use? What decks work best against each hero?

My go to strategy with Jyn was regular stormies in the front, royal guards or elite officers in the back. The royal guards would activate first, and the stormies would clog up Jyn's line of sight so she couldn't use Quick Draw. The guards would rush in, stun and (if possible) get out, completely shutting down Quick Draw. Once she was stunned, the stormies could focus fire on her. Nexu or trandoshans could work in a pinch if they inflicted Bleed on her, but that was playing a longer game, and if I was really trying to knock Jyn out, they were less than ideal. 

Edited by Pollux85

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Excellent topic. As a new Imperial, a resource like this where tactics are all gathered in one place is invaluable 😊

Jyn:

She suffers the most from wounding, as her already small endurance pool shrinks further and pulling off strong abilities like quick draw becomes that much harder. If quick draw is already exhausted or impossible because of strain, that's a good time to target her (in addition to always keeping the attacking figure out of LOS). Also, if attacking Jyn with multiple figures, start with the one that is out of her LOS, then move that figure to block her LOS to the next attacking figure. I've been able to avoid quick draw on all three storm troopers by abusing this tactic. 

Diala:

Best time to attack her is when she is strained to the max and thus unable to use foresight/defensive stance. Attacking with groups of multiple figures mitigate her dodge defence, while figures that force defensive rerolls (such as HK's, wequays) or that take away dodge  (infiltrators) make sure your attacks hurt. As always, attacks heavy on auto damage (Trandoshan) or red die (nexu, heavy Stormies, rg's) are also effective.

Stunning Diala is not overly effective if she is in a support role. On *one* turn she can remove stun, rest (or attack, or move), focus another hero, force throw a hero or an imperial and provide multiple rerolls.  That's some crazy action economy. Wounding her is not always optimal either, as with high endurance she can still perform all the moves noted above. I'm beginning to think your best bet is to withdraw her if possible, or use a strain-heavy deck (ie Subversive Tactics).

Edited by TeethAlmighty

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Another old famous tactic: 

White defense dice get swarmed with smaller attacks

Black defense dice get attack by the heavy hitters

 

Also, just a few observations I've had in my recent campaign-

 

Vinto- You're basically done bringing in regular stormtroopers

 

If the Rebels have to camp an objective and Jyn is guarding it, you're screwed

 

If there are environmental hazards on the map, stay very clear of Shyla

 

If Drokkatta is around, do not bunch up.

 

 

 

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Gaarkhan: True to his role as the tank of the game, you'll be hard pressed to find one of your regular units you can call the "Gaarkhan killer." He's just got too many hit points and skills that block damage. By the end of the campaign, if Gaarkhan gets Wookie Fortitude, Unstoppable, and is also wearing armor, you'll have a VERY hard time wounding him. Even if you do, sure he's lost his Rage ability, but he gains +2 Damage. Shooting the guy only makes him angrier. Early in the campaign, or perhaps against a less experienced player, Gaarkhan may rush into the fray to attack some probe droid or something, and you can hit him hard early while he is separated from the other Rebels. Players will catch on though, and they'll quickly learn to avoid getting too far away from support characters that can replenish his strain (Gideon). For this reason, I will frequently focus fire on Gaarkhan last. 

To defeat him, you're pretty much going to have to have some units make a sacrifice play, and the real challenge is picking who you want to do that without costing you too much threat. Trandoshans can eat away at his strain and make him much less deadly, but to do that they have to get close, making them vulnerable to his cleave abilities. Nexu can inflict Bleed on him and then get out due to their high speed, but there are plenty of times when board layout makes them not an option, especially if you decide to play thematically. I've had better luck deploying Probe Droids using self destruct or Hired Guns. I've never tried it, but Weequay Pirates are cheap and might also be good to force a reroll and try and score some damage. On paper, it could work. Once he rushes in for the kill, back them up with Heavy Stormies that have spread out to avoid Cleave, or some Jet Troopers. In theory, HK's could fulfill either roll due to their rerolls. If you can get Class deck upgrades to add in Pierce or extra damage to any of these units (looking at you Technological Superiority and Armored Onslaught), this can also be very helpful. Sentry Droids might be able to really rip through him due to them having both Pierce and reroll abilities, but I can't say from experience. I've had mixed success with Snowtroopers as supports.

Of course, if you've got some high defense unit like Vader, General Weiss, or the Royal Guard Champ, that can be a game changer. They can absorb a lot of damage while these other units chip away at him, but they can be tough to acquire. 

 

Edited by Pollux85

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5 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

Excellent topic. As a new Imperial, a resource like this where tactics are all gathered in one place is invaluable 😊

Jyn:

She suffers the most from wounding, as her already small endurance pool shrinks further and pulling off strong abilities like quick draw becomes that much harder. If quick draw is already exhausted or impossible because of strain, that's a good time to target her (in addition to always keeping the attacking figure out of LOS). Also, if attacking Jyn with multiple figures, start with the one that is out of her LOS, then move that figure to block her LOS to the next attacking figure. I've been able to avoid quick draw on all three storm troopers by abusing this tactic. 

 

The look on my Rebel player's face the first time I did this and she realized what was happening was priceless.

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This is a must have tactic against Jyn. It becomes tougher to avoid her if she has trick shot. When she has peacemaker, it’s sometimes best to not attack her at all (until forced). My wife has played Jyn in 3 campaigns thus far, so I’m all too familiar with this pesky rebel :) She is finally trying Vinto for our JR campaign.

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Pics and examples if you don't know the Anti-Jyn LOS movement tricks: https://teamcovenant.com/general/not-quick-enough-overwhelming-jyn-odan-an-ia-case-study

Also this is how you utilize Stormtrooper's reroll without being blasted: you move then disperse (ex. move 2 -> shoot -> move 2) instead of move 4 -> shoot -> end of activation and being blasted/cleaved by Fenn/Gaarkhan/Shyla...

 

So for an experienced Imp player the final position in that pic might look something like this (assuming there's still open space to the left):

# = Stormtroopers, J = Jyn

1 _ _
_  _ _
_  _ 2
3 _ J

Edited by ricope

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Ok so Vinto.

Vinto strengths is his ability to deal a large amount of unmitigated damage. Between 2 attacks and rapid fire, Vinto could theoretically remove a full squad of storm troopers in one activation, and there is less room to play around bolt sling and rapid fire, especially with thread the needle, then there would be for avoid fenns blast as an example. 

However, Vinto, despite being a "reckless vigilante", can not be reckless and throw himself forward. With only 12 health, a white dice for defense and short range for bolt sling and rapid fire, Vinto is very glass. 

In the current campaign, I'm playing with reactive defense against Vinto, Jarrod, Ko tun and Shyla. Vinto has good offensive power, but no defensive items. We have 2 missions before the finale and currently I can insta wound Vinto with one activation of weequays from about 8 spaces away. Vinto should not lead from the front, Vinto should sit behind Shyla and Jarrod. 

Also, Vinto can be quite strain heavy between thread the needle, rapid fire and moving to get 2 attacks off, so applying bleed might be a good idea.

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12 hours ago, LordDraigo1 said:

Ok so Vinto.

Vinto strengths is his ability to deal a large amount of unmitigated damage. Between 2 attacks and rapid fire, Vinto could theoretically remove a full squad of storm troopers in one activation, and there is less room to play around bolt sling and rapid fire, especially with thread the needle, then there would be for avoid fenns blast as an example. 

However, Vinto, despite being a "reckless vigilante", can not be reckless and throw himself forward. With only 12 health, a white dice for defense and short range for bolt sling and rapid fire, Vinto is very glass. 

In the current campaign, I'm playing with reactive defense against Vinto, Jarrod, Ko tun and Shyla. Vinto has good offensive power, but no defensive items. We have 2 missions before the finale and currently I can insta wound Vinto with one activation of weequays from about 8 spaces away. Vinto should not lead from the front, Vinto should sit behind Shyla and Jarrod. 

Also, Vinto can be quite strain heavy between thread the needle, rapid fire and moving to get 2 attacks off, so applying bleed might be a good idea.

Vinto is 11 Health, but your reasoning is still solid.

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On 2/28/2018 at 5:42 AM, LordDraigo1 said:

Ok so Vinto.

Vinto strengths is his ability to deal a large amount of unmitigated damage. Between 2 attacks and rapid fire, Vinto could theoretically remove a full squad of storm troopers in one activation, and there is less room to play around bolt sling and rapid fire, especially with thread the needle, then there would be for avoid fenns blast as an example. 

However, Vinto, despite being a "reckless vigilante", can not be reckless and throw himself forward. With only 12 health, a white dice for defense and short range for bolt sling and rapid fire, Vinto is very glass. 

In the current campaign, I'm playing with reactive defense against Vinto, Jarrod, Ko tun and Shyla. Vinto has good offensive power, but no defensive items. We have 2 missions before the finale and currently I can insta wound Vinto with one activation of weequays from about 8 spaces away. Vinto should not lead from the front, Vinto should sit behind Shyla and Jarrod. 

Also, Vinto can be quite strain heavy between thread the needle, rapid fire and moving to get 2 attacks off, so applying bleed might be a good idea.

We've found in our group that our build of Vinto isn't strain-heavy at all.  He's a huge pain to deal with.

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5 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

We've found in our group that our build of Vinto isn't strain-heavy at all.  He's a huge pain to deal with.

With Rapid Fire, Thread the Needle and Straining for Movement to get two attacks he can get quite Strain Heavy. Grabbing his XP ability for +Endurance (Battlefield Experience) can really help Vinto there.

Against Vinto there is no reason not to group your figures, as he can pretty much get anyone within 7 of eachother with Boltslinger or Rapid Fire (or within 8 if he grabs the XP ability for +1 range on his abilities.

As such, if you group (and there is no-one with Blast),  he will most likely have to use Thread the Needle to see everyone and then struggle 2 or 3 turns into the mission to reliably attack twice or even Rapid Fire.

If he gets Bacta Pump or Emergency Injector you're screwed though...

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I like applying status conditions to the heroes I’m facing, and different ones are better for different heroes. For example:

Jyn: Stun, keeps her from killing my units as they activate

Diala: Weaken. It’s hard to wound her, but I find weaken speeds up the process conciderably. With weaken foresight is considerable less powerful.

Fenn: Stun. He recovers strain, so bleed is less effective, and black die means weaken is weaker. Stun means one less blast attack. 

Shyla: Depends on whether see has the 4xp upgrade that give + evade. If she has that, weaken is needed to wound her effectively. If not Stun is a great go.

Gideon: Bleed. And keep him bleeding. Always. Enough said.

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Posted (edited)

Gideon: As @player1155101 noted, the secret to taking out Gideon is bleeding. Without his strain, he's basically worthless. That means wave after wave after wave of Trandoshans and Nexu. Supporting units for this can be stormies, snowies, Wing Guard, Hired Guns, or Weequay. Really, they are just there to clog up line of sight from the other Rebels while the Trandoshans wail on him. Make sure you keep these escorts spread out in case Diala, Fenn, or Gaarkhan use their Blast, Cleave, or multi-target attacks to cut you all up.  It may be a better idea to change the escort based on what the other Rebel heroes are, but don't make them expensive, because you can bet they will get wrecked. Making a beeline for Gideon can be risky depending on the objectives of the mission, but once Gideon gets Rallying Shout, Masterstroke, or Fearless Leader, it becomes riskier still to let him live. He'll be dishing out too much strain and giving the Rebels too many extra attacks to ignore. 

Choosing Subversive Tactics can really punish Gideon, because that is one of the only class decks that can deal strain instead of damage. Gideon lives and dies by his ability to regulate his strain and the rest of the party. For those who think Subversive Tactics takes a lot of the fun out of the game, Gideon hates the arc blasters that are in Technological Superiority, and there is also Power of the Dark Side in the new HotE box which can inflict strain.

Edited by Pollux85

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I found inflicting Strain on Gideon to be less effective than I'd like. A typical turn for Gideon is:

Rest > Command (and move 2 spaces) > Masterstroke (and move 2 more spaces) > Strain move a couple if required.

That's 6 movement and 2 actions for other Heroes.  He only needs 4 strain for all of that, so when unwounded he can basically ignore the bleed.  He can also throw in a Rallying Shout somewhere along the way, and a Called Shot if it's needed.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, udat said:

Rest > Command (and move 2 spaces) > Masterstroke (and move 2 more spaces) > Strain move a couple if required.

Gideon cannot spend movement points received from Mobile Tactician between Command and Masterstroke or he will voluntarily pass on the trigger to activate Masterstroke ("after resolving Command").

Edited by a1bert

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11 hours ago, udat said:

I found inflicting Strain on Gideon to be less effective than I'd like. A typical turn for Gideon is:

Rest > Command (and move 2 spaces) > Masterstroke (and move 2 more spaces) > Strain move a couple if required.

That's 6 movement and 2 actions for other Heroes.  He only needs 4 strain for all of that, so when unwounded he can basically ignore the bleed.  He can also throw in a Rallying Shout somewhere along the way, and a Called Shot if it's needed.

What was your strategy to deal with Gideon?

By the end of my campaign, I'd have been thrilled if Gideon was spending half his turn to rest. The difference between 3 and 2 attacks is huge. Plus, if he's bleeding, shouldn't he take 1 strain after both the rest and after the Command? He's only strain moving one space at most. Which means the other Rebels are either staying put to protect him, lest they leave range of his Command ability or they've split the party. I like either one. 

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10 hours ago, a1bert said:

Gideon cannot spend movement points received from Mobile Tactician between Command and Masterstroke or he will voluntarily pass on the trigger to activate Masterstroke ("after resolving Command").

Wait, does that mean he can also only give out 1 strain if he's got Masterstroke and Fearless Leader?

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The trigger for Masterstroke and Fearless Leader would happen in the same timing instance... the player would get to choose the order they resolve, with the latter first making the most sense:

  1. Gideon performs Command
  2. "After Command resolves" Targeted hero recovers 1 strain via Fearless Leader
  3. "After Command resolves" Gideon gains 2 movement points via Mobile Tactition
  4. "After Command resolves" Gideon exhausts Masterstroke to perform a second Command
  5. "After (2nd)Command resolves" Targeted hero recovers 1 strain via Fearless Leader
  6. "After (2nd)Command resolves" Gideon gains 2 movement points via Mobile Tactition

Conversely, in a1bert's example... spending movement points can only be done before or after actions, not during. If he chooses to spend the movement points, this happens after the "After Command resolves" trigger has occurred. Until then, the movement points are just added to his pool.

The only thing I could see, and I'm sure it's probably been discussed and ruled against somewhere... is there anything out there to say you must perform the second Command immediately after exhausting Masterstroke? The card itself says "You may perform...", which could possibly be read as either "do it if you want to" or "you're allowed to do it". The latter in my mind would simply "unlock" the ability to use Command a second time for free, which in turn would allow you to spend the movement points from Mobile Tactition before hand. But, like I said... it's probably been discussed already. It's late and I didn't want to go digging through the forums (I did check the FAQ, didn't see anything in there). :P

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2 hours ago, Pollux85 said:

Wait, does that mean he can also only give out 1 strain if he's got Masterstroke and Fearless Leader?

No, he does indeed allows 2 strain recovery

Both Masterstroke and Fearless leader have the trigger "After you resolve Command". So if you must trigger them (if you want) right at that point or you forfeit the time window

Easy way to think: Mobile Tactician grants Gideon 2MP after resolving Command. However if you decide to spend MPs there and then...then it's no longer "After you resolve Command" because you moved, so you can't do Masterstroke/Fearless leader anymore

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All abilities that have "after" or "before" also have an implicit "immediately" associated with them. The "after"/"before" condition is a trigger/timing for the ability. If there are more than one abilities with the same trigger, you perform them in the order of your choice. After resolving each you return to the same trigger and can choose which ability of the same trigger to resolve.

Movement points from Mobile Tactician are not received as part of a special action (although they are received during a special action), so they go into Gideon's movement point pool.

Spending movement points is a "during your activation" ability. It has a different trigger than "after resolving Command". If after resolving Command you you choose to activate an ability with other trigger than "after resolving Command", you are then no longer at the trigger "after resolving Command".

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This has just re-opened an issue I thought was settled (I mean in my own mind...)

I thought Gideon had to spend the 2MP from Mobile Tactician immediately after his first Command, before the second command from Masterstroke.  Is that not the case?  Can he command/masterstroke, and then move 4 spaces?  That gives him even more flexibility.

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6 hours ago, Pollux85 said:

What was your strategy to deal with Gideon?

By the end of my campaign, I'd have been thrilled if Gideon was spending half his turn to rest. The difference between 3 and 2 attacks is huge. Plus, if he's bleeding, shouldn't he take 1 strain after both the rest and after the Command? He's only strain moving one space at most. Which means the other Rebels are either staying put to protect him, lest they leave range of his Command ability or they've split the party. I like either one. 

He was usually the first hero wounded in each mission. He was a lot less dangerous when wounded (especially with bleed) but also Stun was usually effective, preventing him from keeping pace with the other heroes.  If he was stunned (assuming he started the round full of strain, which was typical) then he'd either be unable to move, or unable to command for a turn, both of which are reasonable outcomes.  Stun wasn't always useful though. If he was already close to the Rebel objective or had line of sight to a lot of the map then stun didn't really effect him.  One mission he was stunned for several turns and never bothered to clear it - just handing out commands, surges, and strain recovery from where he was.

The difference between 2 attacks and 3 attacks isn't that huge when one of the attacks is Gideon with his starting weapon. I think he might have attacked a handful of times in the entire campaign, and all of those would have been early on, before Masterstroke.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, udat said:

This has just re-opened an issue I thought was settled (I mean in my own mind...)

I thought Gideon had to spend the 2MP from Mobile Tactician immediately after his first Command, before the second command from Masterstroke.  Is that not the case?  Can he command/masterstroke, and then move 4 spaces?  That gives him even more flexibility.

The only time a hero would need to spend the movement points immediately is during another figures activation. Otherwise they go to the pool and can be used anytime during the activation (before/after other actions). Some abilities say "Move # spaces", these are not the same as movement points (ignoring difficult terrain being the biggest perk) and would need to be used immediately.

Edited by Methantilus

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