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What if TLT wasn’t in the game?

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All these talks of getting rid of the tlt or putting a restriction on it.  Nobody threw out the idea that you only get your second shot of the target is large base or if the target has less than 3 agility.  Large base idea would suck against high hit point small based ships though.  If it was a restriction on agility, it wouldn’t be effective against low hit point aces which are dominated by 4 shots from the ghost.  

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It’s the ships, not TLT.

HWKs, TIE AGGs and Y-wings are functional and balanced with TLT.  I suppose even Attack Shuttles are fine with it, especially since there’s no way to have more than three with TLT in a list anyway.  Flying formations is hard, and trying to fly in a way that multiple turrets can hit one ship is still hard.  The donut hole ensures that ships have a way of outflying massed TLTs and have a chance of winning the damage race.  Even if the whole engagement is ‘boring’.  Really this reminds me of TIE Fighter when you had to go up against Assault transports, that’s was ROUGH but there were ways to beat it.  And TLTs aren’t nearly as powerful as those monsters.

 

now, when you talk about Miranda, Nym and Ghost, we got problems. The donut hole suddenly becomes a myth (PS 11 boost....what?  Miranda loves for you to dive into range one!), you try avoiding bombs but get TLTd anyway (with full mods)(or bombed AND TLTd), there’s a point fortress that gets to fire twice TWICE (again with crazy mods), and really TLT is just the icing on these ****-flavored cakes.  

 

I think I can see the problem here.  It’s the icing, right?

Edited by GrimmyV

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If it had to be nerfed (which I personally don't think it does.) Make its range exactly 2. It is simple, it thins out the donut significantly, and it addsa bit more positioning to the equation.

For the original question, if TLT was not in the game, people would be wanting the next powered thing to be nerfed. TLT Ghost has been around through the 3x Jumpmasters, Dangaroo, Antarri Mindlink, & Nym. We are really dealing with B-Team things and people are still complaining about it. Heck, already, with just the thought of this of nerfing TLTs, people want to nerf Dash.

There will always be a top of the meta ship. I am sorry it is not your favorite.

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5 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

It’s the ships, not TLT.

HWKs, TIE AGGs and Y-wings are functional and balanced with TLT.  I suppose even Attack Shuttles are fine with it, especially since there’s no way to have more than three with TLT in a list anyway.  Flying formations is hard, and trying to fly in a way that multiple turrets can hit one ship is still hard.  The donut hole ensures that ships have a way of outflying massed TLTs and have a chance of winning the damage race.  Even if the whole engagement is ‘boring’.  Really this reminds me of TIE Fighter when you had to go up against Assault transports, that’s was ROUGH but there were ways to beat it.  And TLTs aren’t nearly as powerful as those monsters.

 

now, when you talk about Miranda, Nym and Ghost, we got problems. The donut hole suddenly becomes a myth (PS 11 boost....what?  Miranda loves for you to dive into range one!), you try avoiding bombs but get TLTd anyway (with full mods)(or bombed AND TLTd), there’s a point fortress that gets to fire twice TWICE (again with crazy mods), and really TLT is just the icing on these ****-flavored cakes.  

 

I think I can see the problem here.  It’s the icing, right?

It's both.

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3 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

TLT's don't need to be gone but they do need to be brought into line with other turrets. Best case: Make them Range 1-2. Other option: Drop their Attack to 2. Another: Only get the second Attack if the first hits.

This means changing the card text significantly. If most people feel restricting to the Hwk is too restricting (especially for imp players who purchased 4 aggressors), then I suggest what we need is Miranda pilot ability to be primary only. And for ghost to be able to use the turret equipped to a docked phantom, so it costs 6 more.

 

Leave Nym for now, doesn't appear to be as bug a player since his genius and trag sim nerf/clarification.

 

Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, Ynot said:

TLT should be small ship only and allow range 3 defense bonus for all secondary weapons.

Not all secondary weapons. Ordnance have problems of their own (being discarded, for instance) and reasons for not having range bonus (they should "track", except unguided rockets, and their payload is fixed, so no bonus from being point blank). Cannons and turrets have however no reason to behave different to lasers, except 'FFG says so'.
The only problem would be that Blaster/Synced/Dorsal turrets would become too powerful, with this bonus damage at R1. But actually, turrets could also have special rules for that. I remember in KOTOR that targetting hostiles darting at point blank was very much impossible because of their speed compared to the ship... So why not turrets add also an evade die at R1, unless the defender is in a firing arc ? It would be like Zuckuss, so less than optimal, unless you build for it (strip tokens from target, and full modifications).

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1 hour ago, DoctorJanus said:

Not all secondary weapons. Ordnance have problems of their own (being discarded, for instance) and reasons for not having range bonus (they should "track", except unguided rockets, and their payload is fixed, so no bonus from being point blank). Cannons and turrets have however no reason to behave different to lasers, except 'FFG says so'.
The only problem would be that Blaster/Synced/Dorsal turrets would become too powerful, with this bonus damage at R1. But actually, turrets could also have special rules for that. I remember in KOTOR that targetting hostiles darting at point blank was very much impossible because of their speed compared to the ship... So why not turrets add also an evade die at R1, unless the defender is in a firing arc ? It would be like Zuckuss, so less than optimal, unless you build for it (strip tokens from target, and full modifications).

The key is simplicity.  There are almost no upgrade cards that require an extra rule card.  The one exception would be bombs, and that is because every bomb behaves differently and there isn't enough room on the card to explain it all.  Otherwise, the rules for the upgrade fit on the card.  That's why all secondaries don't get range bonuses.  I very much doubt FFG will make any changes to the overall rules, and simply change the offending cards, whether they nerf turrets or the ships that use them.

Furthermore, nerfing all turrets would be very much overkill, hurting several already balanced turrets in the process.  If there is a change, it should be to TLT only or to Ghost/Miranda (and maybe Nym).

 

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OK, because I get ideas stuck in my head, I have been trying to think of a decent solution to the TLT. Here is the best one I came up with, it needs refined and reworded still, but this is the gist of it. 

Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
You may immedately attack a second time with the amount of hits and critical that were cancelled from the pervious attack.

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8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I just want to point out that before TLT came along the game was still really boring and full of turrets.  TLT was created to smash the dominance of Dash/Han/Chiraneau.

This^^

TLT is needed in this game to keep certain fat ships in check, just not the way it is currently implemented.

There are two fixes that are easy to do in a FAQ:

1) You only get your second shot if your first shot HITS. This IMO is what is badly needed!

What this does is still make TLT effective versus low agility ships that it was designed to hurt, all those 0 and 1 agility ships will still get chewed up by TLT which is good. Other 2 and 3 agility ships can now spend their tokens to dodge the first shot and ending the madness. This would put and end to triple/quad TLT cheese because the second shot is not guaranteed. Also makes Miranda less efficient as she has to reduce her first attack to regen, making it easier to block and denying the second shot, or she risks trying to get a damage in with her first shot and hopefully regen on the second shot (easy to do versus Ghost,Decimators,Falcons, not so easy versus Autothruster ships). Makes Double tapping ghost still scary, but not OP. Blocking the combat phase attack ends, leaving it stressed with Maul, and then the double tap with no rerolls.

2) Range bonus to secondary weapons outside of primary firing arc

Self explanatory here. Keeps cannons and missiles as they are, and the only secondary weapon as of now that can hit range 3 out of arc is the TLT, YT-2400 with Outrider, and Nera (sorry Nera, take one for the team). Ghost special arc gets a tiny nerf but not many use that anyway. The ghost has to try and maintain range 2 with TLT or in the primary arc or else ships get range bonus. 2 agility ships like T70s suddenly have 3 green dice with autothrusters. Khiraxs now have 3 green dice with autothruster. Interceptors get 4 dice. 

Edited by wurms

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i always saw TLT as an anti-tokenstack attack rather than anti-fatship

Fatships generally have enough hp where unless you spammed TLTs (hmm...that happens alot it seems) they usually would kill you first anyway.
Tokenstacking ships generally dont have much health, 6 being the highest that has both agility and stackability. Even a single TLT can wreck their day. They can dodge both attacks but its quite rare for them to do it without burning their stack, thus being vulnerable to the next attack.

But i could see wurms' #1 point being valid too. Either that or a Gunner effect (if this attack misses, perform it again. You may not attack again this round) would stop it from being so overbearingly good.

One makes it chew threw low agi but remove its universal strength against ALL ships while the other lowers the damage cap while keeping its difficult-to-evade properties.

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1 hour ago, Jadotch said:

OK, because I get ideas stuck in my head, I have been trying to think of a decent solution to the TLT. Here is the best one I came up with, it needs refined and reworded still, but this is the gist of it. 

Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.
You may immedately attack a second time with the amount of hits and critical that were cancelled from the pervious attack.

That actually can make things better because you can modify the first shot with impunity and not have to worry about the second shot. 

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19 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And it's donut hole. Lists might have an answer for that downside, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

True, but all of the other turrets are range 1-2, with a massive exclusion zone encompassing range 3 out of arc.  The range 1 exclusion zone is a fraction of that size.  Arc dodgers can dive in there but they are hampered by the auto-damage meta.

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33 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

True, but all of the other turrets are range 1-2, with a massive exclusion zone encompassing range 3 out of arc.  The range 1 exclusion zone is a fraction of that size.  Arc dodgers can dive in there but they are hampered by the auto-damage meta.

Fair, but just because the range 1 bubble is smaller than not having range 3 doesn't discount it as a weakness. There is still counterplay to be had. Yes, Arc Dodgers are the best at using this counterplay, but they are far from the only ones that can use it. 

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On 2/26/2018 at 4:39 PM, Knave Squawk said:

Fenn / Ghost with Synch is a thing and Miranda with Autoblaster is also a thing

^pretty much this^

You got to remember before TLTs you had the 2 ship point-superfortress list dominating the meta where 50-60 points were put inside a big turret Such as a Decimator or Han solo and the rest into a tanky token banking hard to kill ace.

TLT was needed to provide a counter to all the hard damage mitigation out there (C-3PO/Palp/Auto + evade) without giving more damage output than a 3 firepower attack. Now granted that constancy often beats max potential (bird in hand worth 2 in bush) so I know given the 100 attacks TLT will come on top but X_wing games are small enough that odds don't always play in the general favor.

You also got to keep in mind that well the Wookies will run (ever more so) rampant if not for TLTs. TLT for all its turmoil does keep a lot of janky lists in check (although being a bit jank themselves). So when designing a list you are just going to have to keep that in mind, how long will it take a 4 TLT list to kill it and how to either extend it (regeneration which the Imperials Need!) or how to simply reduce it (K-wing killer builds out there).

Edited by Marinealver

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Tlt is IMO abusing the secondary weapon rule for range 3.

It's boring and punishes players for not playing 3 agility + auto thrusters.

Third it outclasses all other secondary turrets with maybe exception of autoblaster with it's special rule and low point cost.

If ships like hwk and y-wings need tlt too work, then we have a balance problem in the game.

Something needs too be done, Nerf or buffs. 

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TLT has a donut hole.

TLT cost 6 pts, maybe one point less than it should, but that’s quite I bit in a 100 pt game.

its a three dice attack that only does one damage, no possible crits.  And you can do it twice in a turn but it has to be on the same target.

these factors are what balances this upgrade.  When you take away or modify these then you’ve broken this upgrade.  Miranda takes away the hole, Ghosts takes away the ‘only shoots twice’, and both make this turret worth ALOT more than 6 pts.  

It’s the ships, not the upgrade.  

6 hours ago, jocke01 said:

If ships like hwk and y-wings need tlt too work, then we have a balance problem in the game.

Uh, TLT was the ‘fix’ for those ships because they were falling behind or were way behind to begin with.  No one is arguing that this game is without balance issues.  The debate is about what to do when the meta is once again dominated by fat turrets.  And I say trim the fat, not the turret.  But if you want some TLT hate:

 

sharpshooter (crew, 1 pt)

when attacking a ship, and the defender is hit, put Disabled Weapons System condition on the defender.

 

Disabled Weapons System (condition)

When this condition is placed, the player placing this condition chooses one secondary weapon upgrade on this ship.  That upgrade is discarded.

Action: roll one defense die.  On an evade result remove condition and flip up one discarded secondary weapon upgrade.

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21 hours ago, wurms said:

2) Range bonus to secondary weapons outside of primary firing arc

This^^

I would even go as far as saying all defending ships should get a 'deflection bonus' on ALL shots outside of primary firing arc.  In a dogfight game you should be rewarded for your piloting skill - object of the game should be to keep them in arc while staying out of arc yourself.  Maybe create a 'targeting computer' upgrade card for turret ships that allows them to fire without deflection.  

Edited by cubsfan4life

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2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

TLT has a donut hole.

TLT cost 6 pts, maybe one point less than it should, but that’s quite I bit in a 100 pt game.

its a three dice attack that only does one damage, no possible crits.  And you can do it twice in a turn but it has to be on the same target.

these factors are what balances this upgrade.  When you take away or modify these then you’ve broken this upgrade.  Miranda takes away the hole, Ghosts takes away the ‘only shoots twice’, and both make this turret worth ALOT more than 6 pts.  

It’s the ships, not the upgrade.  

Uh, TLT was the ‘fix’ for those ships because they were falling behind or were way behind to begin with.  No one is arguing that this game is without balance issues.  The debate is about what to do when the meta is once again dominated by fat turrets.  And I say trim the fat, not the turret.  But if you want some TLT hate:

 

sharpshooter (crew, 1 pt)

when attacking a ship, and the defender is hit, put Disabled Weapons System condition on the defender.

 

Disabled Weapons System (condition)

When this condition is placed, the player placing this condition chooses one secondary weapon upgrade on this ship.  That upgrade is discarded.

Action: roll one defense die.  On an evade result remove condition and flip up one discarded secondary weapon upgrade.

Tlt was never marketed like a fix. What about bomb loadout for y-wings, what about ion cannon turret?.

I guess I just feel the game is boring when ships fly anywere and get two 3 dice attack that gives no defence bonus. Sure it was ok vs fat fan, but fat han lost from giving half points.

Tlt has killed low-medium hp ships without autothrusters. X-wings, B-wings, y-wings, z-95, tie bombers. Sure they are underpowered thanks to powercreep but tlt just crushes them.

 

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2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

TLT was never marketed like a fix. What about bomb loadout for y-wings, what about ion cannon turret?.

Uh, ICT has always been packaged with the Y-wing.  From wave one.  It was the first ever turret in the entire game.  It’s definitely not a fix.  It was designed as THE thing the Y-wing could do to make it worth taking.  A control turret that also damages is a wonderful thing.

 

Unfortunately the ICT has been overshadowed by the TLT mostly due to range and the cost being only one more point.  Stress hog even had its range extended at the cost of one point and loss of ion control.

 

but anyway the first fix for Y-wing wasn’t bomb Loadout, it was the title.  And TLT worked well with the title unlike ABT or others.

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2 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Uh, ICT has always been packaged with the Y-wing.  From wave one.  It was the first ever turret in the entire game.  It’s definitely not a fix.  It was designed as THE thing the Y-wing could do to make it worth taking.  A control turret that also damages is a wonderful thing.

 

Unfortunately the ICT has been overshadowed by the TLT mostly due to range and the cost being only one more point.  Stress hog even had its range extended at the cost of one point and loss of ion control.

 

but anyway the first fix for Y-wing wasn’t bomb Loadout, it was the title.  And TLT worked well with the title unlike ABT or others.

But that's the problem with tlt, it,s not an y-wing with tlt, it's a tlt with y-wing.

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37 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

But that's the problem with tlt, it,s not an y-wing with tlt, it's a tlt with y-wing.

Better than a TLT with a Ghost, Nym or Miranda!

 

 

but then Y-Wings are my favorite Rebel ship

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On 2/27/2018 at 4:10 PM, wurms said:

1) You only get your second shot if your first shot HITS. This IMO is what is badly needed!

What this does is still make TLT effective versus low agility ships that it was designed to hurt, all those 0 and 1 agility ships will still get chewed up by TLT which is good. Other 2 and 3 agility ships can now spend their tokens to dodge the first shot and ending the madness. This would put and end to triple/quad TLT cheese because the second shot is not guaranteed. Also makes Miranda less efficient as she has to reduce her first attack to regen, making it easier to block and denying the second shot, or she risks trying to get a damage in with her first shot and hopefully regen on the second shot (easy to do versus Ghost,Decimators,Falcons, not so easy versus Autothruster ships). Makes Double tapping ghost still scary, but not OP. Blocking the combat phase attack ends, leaving it stressed with Maul, and then the double tap with no rerolls.

I greatly like this.  I'd seen folks suggest you should only get the second shot on a miss, but on a hit is a lot nicer.

Another easy-FAQ option: second shot only in primary firing arc.  It'll lower damage output in a lot of cases, but it also makes positioning a lot more important.

On 2/27/2018 at 10:13 AM, GrimmyV said:

It’s the ships, not TLT.

HWKs, TIE AGGs and Y-wings are functional and balanced with TLT.  [...]

now, when you talk about Miranda, Nym and Ghost, we got problems. [...]

I think I can see the problem here.  It’s the icing, right?

The thing is, the broken-TLT ships are fairly different.  How they make TLTs into problems doesn't necessarily happen in the same way.  As such, I think that points to there being some problem inherent in TLTs, which these ships are better able to exploit.  Fixing the individual ships would help, until the next ship which can exploit it shows up.

The balanced-ish-TLT ships are probably mostly fine, but there's some awkwardness to them.  It kinda stinks to have a ship like an X-Wing or B-Wing just get melted with zero concern towards arc, and little to overall positioning.  Lose an X-Wing in a joust against 4 ship?  Well, at least they had to guess where you were going.  I don't think that means a full nerf-to-the-ground, but if there's some more modest adjustment to TLTs which does impact lower ships, I don't necessarily think that's too much of a problem.

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