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seef1033

World Championship Tickets

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i got selected but my buddy who I usually travel and play with did not,which made me a "no" for going.We usually split cost for such trips,making such trip feasible.So that is one ticket that will not be purchased going back to them.I am not going to book and pay for flights,hotel,etc...only to have to go alone.Things get expensive.Especially if we wait until he gets another chance at a maybe ticket then try and book stuff.Price only goes up the longer you wait to book.

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10 hours ago, Mrshojen said:

i got selected but my buddy who I usually travel and play with did not,which made me a "no" for going.

I didn't even think about this, but I'm sure many others are also in the same catch 22, what a mess. FFG needs to get these tickets in players' hands at least 3 months before the event so we can make the travel arrangements.

If FFG is going to do this stupid lottery system, they should at least make it a point based system so somebody who has attended events, even local ones before, has a higher chance to attend the World Tournament as opposed to somebody who hasn't attended anything at all.

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22 hours ago, cnemmick said:

How difficult would it be to get a conference room somewhere in the St. Paul area on Saturday? That way folks who can't make the weekday official Worlds can participate with those who did.

I am serious about the prospect of catering something to the community if we could get at least the majority of the US players on board at first. Although I did not have something this May in mind. I’m more than willing to exercise some reasonable patience regarding this FFGOP controversy and let it all play out. I’m of the opinion that it will work out and this won’t be necessary. Aside from that, if this shadow worlds idea materializes into anything it should just be out of necessity. The idea has its positives and negatives. 

However, if there is enough interest from competitive and active players I’d be happy to put some work in and start taking some concrete steps with input from the community. And I’d be happy to make this as much a group effort as it can be.

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6 hours ago, theChony said:

I didn't even think about this, but I'm sure many others are also in the same catch 22, what a mess. FFG needs to get these tickets in players' hands at least 3 months before the event so we can make the travel arrangements.

If FFG is going to do this stupid lottery system, they should at least make it a point based system so somebody who has attended events, even local ones before, has a higher chance to attend the World Tournament as opposed to somebody who hasn't attended anything at all.

Well, it turns out that they do have a way for certain active players to guarantee a spot at Worlds.  Win a Regional or National and you're all set.

Beyond that, you're talking about qualifiers tournaments which would require stores to submit correct and ethical scorekeeping to some kind of central database.  While this sounds interesting, if you factor in guaranteed tickets, plus a leaderboard, there would be even fewer tickets available to the general public, which isn't exactly encouraging to newer players who want to come out to the big event.

All they had to do was do what they did last year, which was open it for sale at two different times and then it's like buying concert tickets; have all your info ready and be there at the time it goes live.  People might complain that the nature of their work makes this difficult, but I'd wager overall, it's much easier to grab a smartphone and take a bathroom break for 5 minutes then it is to have elaborate travel plans on standby hoping that waves of lotteries go in your favour before a general public sale.

The only way the lottery works is if you're required to pay up front when you enter, with the condition that if you're not selected you would get your money refunded but otherwise the cost is non-refundable.  At least then the people putting in for it would be more serious than being able to just toss your lot in and see what happens with no personal cost to risk.

You'd think a company that designs games for a living would understand these basic game theory ideas when they design their ticketing procedure, which has been different every year it seems.

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8 hours ago, seef1033 said:

I am serious about the prospect of catering something to the community if we could get at least the majority of the US players on board at first. Although I did not have something this May in mind. I’m more than willing to exercise some reasonable patience regarding this FFGOP controversy and let it all play out. I’m of the opinion that it will work out and this won’t be necessary. Aside from that, if this shadow worlds idea materializes into anything it should just be out of necessity. The idea has its positives and negatives. 

However, if there is enough interest from competitive and active players I’d be happy to put some work in and start taking some concrete steps with input from the community. And I’d be happy to make this as much a group effort as it can be.

A suggestion: if we run a secondary tournament to demonstrate that there's player interest in more seating and pride of place during FFG's worlds for IA, it might make sense to do it off of the Worlds week.

My thought here is basically that if you try to hard-counter worlds, you lose the people going to it. If you run a tournament early/mid-summer to demonstrate the game's popularity, you may get all the players.

The trick, of course, is to make it compelling for the players without the title and swag of true worlds, and to find a way to send the message to FFG. If you just get two dozen or so, like many regionals, it's not going to sound any clarion call. And if you just do it during worlds, you don't really have a counter-tournament that offers the incentive of playing all the best players, since Regionals/Nationals winners get passed in to formal Worlds. But if you get another time set, and get people to talk it up at Worlds, and get some community commitment, then maybe we can move the levers of power at FFG.

The other long-game move to guarantee more attention for IA is to show up for Regionals and Store Championships, and bring friends. Loan them decks and shell out the $25 for an entry fee -- give your scrimmaging buddy the gift of a tournament experience, as a thank-you for letting you whomp him so many times in preparation. If half or more of the players at my last two regionals had brought friends, we'd have been over 30 participants at each one.

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4 hours ago, cleardave said:

You'd think a company that designs games for a living would understand these basic game theory ideas when they design their ticketing procedure, which has been different every year it seems.

I totally agree. It's definitely more complicated than we think/know. 

I'm guessing that the service that they needed to use for ticket order and payment is super expensive and in the past seemingly not effective. This new method might have been their genius idea to save some money. 

So I can see both points of view here...

They don't want to take a huge loss running an event where they may not make a lot of money out of it. Let's be honest, most people who show up to these events already have most or all of what they need to play these games, so they're not likely going to buy much while they're there. On the other hand, you advertise the tournament as a gathering of the World's top players of the game, so that implies it should be players that are already playing the game in your other sanctioned tournaments. This is also a great venue to advertise your other games in a game playing setting to your current customers of other games. In general, it's also one big commercial for your products. 

I really agree with @cleardave that it should be like a concert ticket sale format. The real fans will wait online (or have a friend or family member wait for them) to buy tickets when they're on sale. You can try again on a different day. I'm not so sure I want to try again on a different month! (march 31st???). 

I'm salty at the moment, but that could change before March 31st. My decision to buy the "concert tickets" on that day will depend on flight costs and perhaps if they announce what I will be getting for my money and loyalty. 

Edited by NeverBetTheFett

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1 hour ago, GottaBadFeelingAboutThis said:

A suggestion: if we run a secondary tournament to demonstrate that there's player interest in more seating and pride of place during FFG's worlds for IA, it might make sense to do it off of the Worlds week.

My thought here is basically that if you try to hard-counter worlds, you lose the people going to it. If you run a tournament early/mid-summer to demonstrate the game's popularity, you may get all the players.

The trick, of course, is to make it compelling for the players without the title and swag of true worlds, and to find a way to send the message to FFG. If you just get two dozen or so, like many regionals, it's not going to sound any clarion call. And if you just do it during worlds, you don't really have a counter-tournament that offers the incentive of playing all the best players, since Regionals/Nationals winners get passed in to formal Worlds. But if you get another time set, and get people to talk it up at Worlds, and get some community commitment, then maybe we can move the levers of power at FFG.

The other long-game move to guarantee more attention for IA is to show up for Regionals and Store Championships, and bring friends. Loan them decks and shell out the $25 for an entry fee -- give your scrimmaging buddy the gift of a tournament experience, as a thank-you for letting you whomp him so many times in preparation. If half or more of the players at my last two regionals had brought friends, we'd have been over 30 participants at each one.

Thanks, and I agree with all your suggestions about timing, number of players, and not competing with Worlds proper. It’s very possible that generating motivation for something like this would take at least a couple years of FFGOP making this process unbearable.

I have to admit, to me this isn’t in any way about sending a message. It’s just about making something appealing to the community if FFGOP isn’t providing what competitive players want in the way of an IA championship. I can take or leave the fanfare, twitch interviews, and swag hype.

Those dice though... 

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So running an unofficial "Community Worlds" is going to have some obstacles some generous organizers are going to have to overcome;

You need a location to hold 100+ people

You need to provide some serious prize incentive to get those 100+ people to show up

Once you've done that, you need to pick a day, probably a Saturday, that isn't around any major holiday that would keep people back with their families.  Then you need to advertise it extensively to generate interest and hype.

Once you've done all that, and paid the  up-front costs on the location and the swag, then you can open up ticketing in whatever way you deem to be fair for the largest number of people and hope you come close to recouping your costs.

Personally I'm all for attending something like this if it was going to be a big deal.  But to travel to somewhere in (presumably) the United States from Toronto, I'm going to need to also spend my own money on travel and accommodations, which 100% factors into the overall value of the experience for me.  Also, if it turns out to be a flop in the sense that not a lot of people go, then I'd want to be able to back-out immediately so I don't spend the money, time, and vacation hours to travel somewhere to play IA with 20 people, which I can do from where I live with a minimal amount of commitment on my end.

And let's not forget that there's something inherently more valuable about "official" swag than the player-made variety when it comes to promo cards, fancy dice, playmats, etc.  You can't just dangle out free product as a prize here, as a competitive player probably has what they need already.  This isn't Destiny where a booster box is worth way more if you break it all open and sell out the valuable rares individually.  Also, if the prize is cash, there are tax implications when you want to come back across the border, which is more a concern for international guests, but it's still a concern.

Again, I'm open to attending something like this, as I'm sure most people polled would superficially agree with, but without a more concrete plan, it's all just talk, until someone assumes the risk of investing in all that infrastructure to host the event to a comparable size that Worlds would receive, along with some baller prizes that come with similar prestige, to incentivize attendance and get high level players out.

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I hope that most people that want to go will be able to get tickets. My theory is that they are reserving many seats for regional champions, but that many of them will not be able to go and so their places will be released come March 31st (the deadline to claim a reserved spot is March 26th). Based on the regional champions in Europe that I know, I'd guess that most of them will skip Worlds because it is a long/expensive trip and not on a weekend. Also, as I understand it, this is the first year where European regional champions get a reserved seat, which could explain the difference in ease of getting tickets compared to last year. It sucks to not know though until only a month before the tournament. That should definitely be handled better in future years.

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7 minutes ago, turkishvancat said:

I hope that most people that want to go will be able to get tickets. My theory is that they are reserving many seats for regional champions, but that many of them will not be able to go and so their places will be released come March 31st (the deadline to claim a reserved spot is March 26th). 

This makes a lot of sense. There were 28 Regionals scheduled in North America alone. This could account for some ticket availability issues. 

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For sure @cleardave. Clearly this is all reactionary and just an idea. It’s also partially something that I will want to consider in the future regardless of what happens in the immediate since someday I will want to attempt to keep it going after FFG stops supporting competitive play.

Edited by seef1033

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58 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

This makes a lot of sense. There were 28 Regionals scheduled in North America alone. This could account for some ticket availability issues. 

It only sort of makes sense.

They've always held extra spots open, but they've ticketed it separately for those winners ahead of time to confirm that they are or are not going, and after that deadline they open it to the public.  Stick to that, with a concert-ticket-rules public sale and you can't miss.  There could be 100 potential Regional Champions, but make a deadline ahead of time, and they get their first refusal rights.  That's what gets this solved.

People will be as non-committal as you allow them to be.

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35 minutes ago, seef1033 said:

For sure @cleardave. Clearly this is all reactionary and just an idea. It’s also partially something that I will want to consider in the future regardless of what happens in the immediate since someday I will want to attempt to keep it going after FFG stops supporting competitive play.

On the plus side, you'll have plenty of unused maps that didn't come up in Skirmish rotation to pick from.

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19 minutes ago, cleardave said:

On the plus side, you'll have plenty of unused maps that didn't come up in Skirmish rotation to pick from.

No kidding! There’s enough content for years although many of the scenarios are not the best for competition. HOWEVER, lots of opportunity to come up with balanced scenarios for different maps!

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3 hours ago, cleardave said:

It only sort of makes sense.

They've always held extra spots open, but they've ticketed it separately for those winners ahead of time to confirm that they are or are not going, and after that deadline they open it to the public.  Stick to that, with a concert-ticket-rules public sale and you can't miss.  There could be 100 potential Regional Champions, but make a deadline ahead of time, and they get their first refusal rights.  That's what gets this solved.

People will be as non-committal as you allow them to be.

Part of the problem is they still have regionals finishing up right now (there were a bunch in the last weekend and are there still some more to go?) they need to have regionals end sooner and get the ticketing process going by like the end of January so people can make real plans. I'd made all my negotiations by mid January to be ready to go assuming I could get a ticket, but I knew I'd need to do that to even have a chance to go.

 

4 hours ago, seef1033 said:

For sure @cleardave. Clearly this is all reactionary and just an idea. It’s also partially something that I will want to consider in the future regardless of what happens in the immediate since someday I will want to attempt to keep it going after FFG stops supporting competitive play.

I love the idea of whenever official FFGOP for IA ends, this community stays alive with a yearly big gathering! Hopefully that's at least 5 years away (how long has Star Wars LCG survived until it's last year of support now?). But I love this community and the new friends I make all the time and getting stay connected with so many cool people playing a great game!

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2 hours ago, Masterchiefspiff said:

Part of the problem is they still have regionals finishing up right now (there were a bunch in the last weekend and are there still some more to go?) they need to have regionals end sooner and get the ticketing process going by like the end of January so people can make real plans. 

Correct.  And it's doubly ridiculous for the United States in particular because they're not going to move their Nationals off of something big like GenCon and shift it to February.  The idea that all the premier events can be held at any point basically throughout the year is a little bizarre.

The old progression system made for a fun year.  Store Champs in the winter, Regionals in the spring, build up to nationals like GenCon in the summer and cap off the year in November with Worlds.

But now it's all outgrown itself since they have too many games then and still now that "need" the OP support to keep people playing and buying the games.

We're lucky that IA isn't a "tournament" game exclusively, so we have plenty of value to work with in our purchases.  Netrunner even turned that way with their Legacy style game they produced.  X-Wing and Destiny are narratively bankrupt games that are a strictly sterile head to head optimization game that both operate on a rotation system with their product.  Destiny legally rotates out card sets, X-Wing just invalidates your previous large purchases with reactionary erratas.

Legion and RuneWars are in the same boat in that they have little to offer other than a basic head-to-head experience with some loose sense of objectives but it's basically "kill the other person faster than he kills you"

So to bring it back to the original topic, if tournament support is ridiculous for this game, at least it's not collecting dust on your shelf.  In fact, you don't even need to assemble a group of people anymore if you want to get a game in.  So at least when the game loses OP support you have not only a potential for a dedicated community group to organize a worthwhile tournament experience and you still have an "evergreen" game that you can enjoy 10 years from now with its campaign modes.

In fact, as long as we get at least one more good big box set out of this game that includes some major skirmish fixes, you could even pull it off the shelf in a couple of years and whip up a simple "fun" list with a friend that was curious and play with the popular characters a casual observer would recognize.

Their "anything goes" application process this year was still pretty ill-conceived though...

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