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Tarkin

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14 hours ago, dominosfleet said:

why soontir and not whisper? I know counter and howl but with as few squadrons I feel like howl isn't doing "that" much. 

Mmmm... Whisper might have been a good call.  I was trying to come up with a small squad blob to protect against enemy squadron fleets.

The idea was:  Ciena's a PITA.  Howl boosts both Fel and Ciena, increasing their attack and counter.  You want to shoot Howl to get rid of her bonus, but then you take Fel's damage.  Or you shoot Fel and eat counter3.  

Would probably be even better with Dengar.

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I took a Tarkin list to the London Regionals on the Saturday just gone.

I came 7th out of 26.  This was an incredibly pleasing result for something experimental.  I felt this list had some real power, and I would’ve done better with practise, having played a single game the previous week with it.

The context behind this tournament was after a hiatus from the game, I wanted to bring something fun, hence some unusual upgrades.

I started with a 20 point bid, first player, Sovereign, 2 Light Cruiser, External Rack Raider build, but as my practise game was against someone who wanted first, I swapped up to second player Command Cruisers and a gozanti, looking very similar to @Thrindal ‘s list.

I ended up first every game anyway...

Sovereign didn’t miss XI7s, despite the proliferation of large ships it faced, and the QBTs more than paid for themselves, enhancing all the weak arcs to pack a punch.  Tarkin let me control my speed to a T, so even despite having to force engagements at speed three, I could drop to 1 very easily and gain that extra dice.  I would drop the Strategic Advisor in the future for Tua- no defensive retrofit on a ship that is half my fleet points cost me a 7-4 win, making it 3-8 on the final activation of the game.  (Ignoring all the what-ifs that come with changing a result, 4 more points would’ve had me in the top 4 on MoV.)

The Command Cruisers pulled their weight.  SFO combined with Tarkin tokens allowed me to completely shrug off an opposing Planetary Ion Cannon objective.

Suppressor really pulled its weight.  It prevented carriers from doing their jobs, it gave out useless Squadron commands to fighter light fleets, and it also softened up ship defences to allow the red dice to do their job.  Even Titus, primarily a joke upgrade, helped caused the death of a flotilla that was forced to multi-bump into an Interdictor that was going slower than it was meant to.

The squadrons did their job, though I feel Strategic would’ve done wonders on the day- Valen can be dropped for a Lambda. 

201803 Tarkin Tourny (396/400)
Empire  - Author: Callum

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Objectives: Most Wanted, Contested Outpost, Solar Corona

[flagship] Imperial Star Destroyer Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
 - Grand Moff Tarkin (38)
 - Sovereign (4)
 - Intensify Firepower! (6)
 - Strategic Adviser (4)
 - H9 Turbolasers (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
 - Gunnery Team (7)
= 184 total points

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59)
 - Skilled First Officer (1)
 - Engine Techs (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 73 total points

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59)
 - Skilled First Officer (1)
 - Engine Techs (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 73 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Suppressor (4)
 - Slicer Tools (7)
 - Admiral Titus (2)
= 36 total points

Squadrons (30/134):
1x Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron (13)
1x Ciena Ree TIE Interceptor Squadron (17)

 

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2 hours ago, TheCallum said:

Sovereign didn’t miss XI7s, despite the proliferation of large ships it faced, and the QBTs more than paid for themselves, enhancing all the weak arcs to pack a punch.  Tarkin let me control my speed to a T, so even despite having to force engagements at speed three, I could drop to 1 very easily and gain that extra dice.  I would drop the Strategic Advisor in the future for Tua- no defensive retrofit on a ship that is half my fleet points cost me a 7-4 win, making it 3-8 on the final activation of the game.  (Ignoring all the what-ifs that come with changing a result, 4 more points would’ve had me in the top 4 on MoV.)

 

I am also considering using Tua in place of Strategic Advisor, no Defensive Retro on the Cymoon is a definite weakness.  I would still prefer X17 to the H9 but whatever works for you.  Suppressor is a significant difference to my list and is interesting.  I did try SFO on the Arc but didn't find I needed it, EWS if you can make the points for it does help the Arquitens survivability.  Nice list though.

I believe I am 8-1 with Tarkin since wave 7 with slightly different lists but the concept being the same.  I am hopeful for more token activated upgrades like Engine Techs and Projection Experts in the future, they will only make Tarkin/Sovereign better.

Definitely one of my top 5 fun lists I have ever run and slowly climbing higher.

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This...

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

Tarkin is stupidly fun.

The biggest argument I see against him is his cost and pre wave 7 I would agree.  Granted he is kind of pigeon holed into a Cymoon with Sovereign but it feels like a really strong pigeon hole and for me worth his expense.

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4 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Titus is a steal for his points.  He is king of the unforced errors.  He exists to give your opponent a chance to lose in deployment.

Tarkin is stupidly fun.

Nearly all of my opponents pack a turn 1 navigate command.  Even if they didn't, Titus happens before commands are set, so they would definitely just set it for whatever ship Titus affected.  Titus seems like a win-more card.  He gets better the larger the skill gap, in which case you're probably winning any way.

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5 minutes ago, Valca said:

Nearly all of my opponents pack a turn 1 navigate command.  Even if they didn't, Titus happens before commands are set, so they would definitely just set it for whatever ship Titus affected.  Titus seems like a win-more card.  He gets better the larger the skill gap, in which case you're probably winning any way.

That’s what Nose Punching Gauntlet Fighters are for!

 

NO NAV FOR YOU!!

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6 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

And it turns out from my tournament that Tarkin is verrry good against Raid!

Oh my indeed. That he is... but Raid diametrically is a counter to Tarkins efficiency, forcing you to spend him on clearing rather than a bonus -?

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19 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Oh my indeed. That he is... but Raid diametrically is a counter to Tarkins efficiency, forcing you to spend him on clearing rather than a bonus -?

And so you would hope, what with them spending half a Tarkin on something that can’t shoot straight.

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18 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Oh my indeed. That he is... but Raid diametrically is a counter to Tarkins efficiency, forcing you to spend him on clearing rather than a bonus -?

While true you at least get a choice.  For example I have an Arquitens with C.F. dial a Nav Token and a Nav Raid token.  If the Nav is more important I could burn the dial and still have the Nav for ET, if you need the C.F. then the token can clear the raid.

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8 hours ago, TheCallum said:

I took a Tarkin list to the London Regionals on the Saturday just gone.

I came 7th out of 26.  This was an incredibly pleasing result for something experimental.  I felt this list had some real power, and I would’ve done better with practise, having played a single game the previous week with it.

The context behind this tournament was after a hiatus from the game, I wanted to bring something fun, hence some unusual upgrades.

I started with a 20 point bid, first player, Sovereign, 2 Light Cruiser, External Rack Raider build, but as my practise game was against someone who wanted first, I swapped up to second player Command Cruisers and a gozanti, looking very similar to @Thrindal ‘s list.

I ended up first every game anyway...

Sovereign didn’t miss XI7s, despite the proliferation of large ships it faced, and the QBTs more than paid for themselves, enhancing all the weak arcs to pack a punch.  Tarkin let me control my speed to a T, so even despite having to force engagements at speed three, I could drop to 1 very easily and gain that extra dice.  I would drop the Strategic Advisor in the future for Tua- no defensive retrofit on a ship that is half my fleet points cost me a 7-4 win, making it 3-8 on the final activation of the game.  (Ignoring all the what-ifs that come with changing a result, 4 more points would’ve had me in the top 4 on MoV.)

The Command Cruisers pulled their weight.  SFO combined with Tarkin tokens allowed me to completely shrug off an opposing Planetary Ion Cannon objective.

Suppressor really pulled its weight.  It prevented carriers from doing their jobs, it gave out useless Squadron commands to fighter light fleets, and it also softened up ship defences to allow the red dice to do their job.  Even Titus, primarily a joke upgrade, helped caused the death of a flotilla that was forced to multi-bump into an Interdictor that was going slower than it was meant to.

The squadrons did their job, though I feel Strategic would’ve done wonders on the day- Valen can be dropped for a Lambda. 

201803 Tarkin Tourny (396/400)
Empire  - Author: Callum

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Objectives: Most Wanted, Contested Outpost, Solar Corona

[flagship] Imperial Star Destroyer Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
 - Grand Moff Tarkin (38)
 - Sovereign (4)
 - Intensify Firepower! (6)
 - Strategic Adviser (4)
 - H9 Turbolasers (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
 - Gunnery Team (7)
= 184 total points

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59)
 - Skilled First Officer (1)
 - Engine Techs (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 73 total points

Arquitens-class Command Cruiser (59)
 - Skilled First Officer (1)
 - Engine Techs (8)
 - Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 73 total points

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
 - Suppressor (4)
 - Slicer Tools (7)
 - Admiral Titus (2)
= 36 total points

Squadrons (30/134):
1x Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron (13)
1x Ciena Ree TIE Interceptor Squadron (17)

 

How does one avoid dying to mass squads with this? I actually stopped trying ISD + 2 Arq theoretically for this problem. I can keep an ISD alive, but an Arq dies pretty fast. And Ciena + Valen don't do enough to overcome that. 

Also a question: Why do you feel like Ciena + a Lambda would do better? Seems like that's even easier for even a medium screen to kill off. Especially since to use Strategic means you probably have to extend out. As opposed to keep your squads safe

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12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

How does one avoid dying to mass squads with this? I actually stopped trying ISD + 2 Arq theoretically for this problem. I can keep an ISD alive, but an Arq dies pretty fast. And Ciena + Valen don't do enough to overcome that. 

I have to test the idea, however I feel that adding EWS on Arq's may help.

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Just now, PT106 said:

I have to test the idea, however I feel that adding EWS on Arq's may help.

Me too.... 

The problem I've been having with that theory is that Arq arcs are small. The amount of area that EWS denies is somewhat smaller. This is theory though, can anyone talk with table exp? 

Like this: ISD arcs are huge: You EWS the front, and you're literally nearly immune on the first engagement. And then you can set up overlapping flak for the subsequent turns. (You will die to Gallant Haven though, though Gallant will likely die too). 

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My Thematic Battle of Batonn list runs an ISD1/Chimaera and 3 identical EWS Arqs (backed with 6 TIE squads) - for table experience, EWS is great on the Arqs as they really just show a single  side at range, and draw squads out to kill them. 

 

In every instance ive Lost my Arqs, they were stamped out in one shot by MC75s or ISDs... no defensive Retro would have helped them any more or less, really.

 

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34 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Yeah I haven't run into any squad-heavy lists with this fleet type yet.  I imagine it would be very tough.

I managed to fight off a similar 60 point squad list with it, but 134 Sloane would be a whole different beast.

This is the potential weakness for sure, the one game I lost with the list (last round top table of regionals) was against this type of list.  That said in retrospect I flew poorly and didn’t adjust my strategy fast enough.  I stuck to my slow and steady strategy was brutal on my part, if I had maxed speed and chased down his ships I could have had a shot, remember Arquitens are essentially speed 4.  Still may have lost but like others have said EWS may have given the Arquitens just enough survivability.

All that said I think every list has its kryptonite in those cases you need to recognize that and do what you can to mitigate losses.  You can’t win every match.

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14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

How does one avoid dying to mass squads with this? I actually stopped trying ISD + 2 Arq theoretically for this problem. I can keep an ISD alive, but an Arq dies pretty fast. And Ciena + Valen don't do enough to overcome that. 

Also a question: Why do you feel like Ciena + a Lambda would do better? Seems like that's even easier for even a medium screen to kill off. Especially since to use Strategic means you probably have to extend out. As opposed to keep your squads safe

A weakness, sure, but there are mitigating factors-

Firstly, you are long range, and the days of Rhymer are behind us, so you start hitting far sooner than bombers.

You can also gain a turn by throwing the Slicer Tools in.

If you don’t get one-shot, which you shouldn’t after the above two, the Arq’s high engineering plus token and double redirect makes it last a tad longer.  Alternatively you just Nav command plus token to speed 4 out of there.

A Lambda is theoretically helping you win all the objective points too, but as I said I haven’t tried this yet.  

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23 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Me too.... 

The problem I've been having with that theory is that Arq arcs are small. The amount of area that EWS denies is somewhat smaller. This is theory though, can anyone talk with table exp? 

Like this: ISD arcs are huge: You EWS the front, and you're literally nearly immune on the first engagement. And then you can set up overlapping flak for the subsequent turns. (You will die to Gallant Haven though, though Gallant will likely die too). 

I've fought against ews equipped arqs.  They were ineffective for my opponent since I could usually set up to hit either his aft or side arc.  Well over 180 degrees has los to the aft arc.

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37 minutes ago, jbrandmeyer said:

I've fought against ews equipped arqs.  They were ineffective for my opponent since I could usually set up to hit either his aft or side arc.  Well over 180 degrees has los to the aft arc.

That back arc is just massive. Huge hole for ews. 

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Yeah my problem with EWS on the Arqs is that you're really starting to pile points into ships that are already being made pricey by ETs.  

In other news, ran a similar fleet (Cymoon/2x Arqs) against Sloane today.  I was running Ozzel instead of Tarkin but I think the weakness to squads was apparent.  I managed to win 6-5 by grabbing the objective, killing one ship and RUNNING, but those squads are absolutely brutal.  Definitely the biggest weakness of this fleet type.  Especially with a Sloane-avenger to follow up.

Demo is also a really tough one.  I think I might want to find room for AP on the arqs just so they can casually shrug off a massive MC30 or Demo hit.

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5 hours ago, duck_bird said:

Demo is also a really tough one.  I think I might want to find room for AP on the arqs just so they can casually shrug off a massive MC30 or Demo hit.

I have had no problem with Demo, You can deploy to counter Demo.  What I do is have the Cymoon on one side and have the Arquitens on the other in a line for deployment, about a rulers length apart from the ISD.  Have the Arquitens cut across the bow of the Cymoon.  This puts a brutally large number of dice covering a large area at long range.  Did this to a Demo today and it only got one effective shot off after moving turn 2.  The 2 Arquitens and the Cymoon then turned it to dust.

I made another change to my list today, I dropped Strategic Advisor from my list, I just found I was getting diminishing returns from it.  It was generally great round 2 but after that not very useful.  I decided to use Minister Tua instead so I could add ECM.  This made the ISD much more survivable.  The only issue was/is the list is now 400 points on the dot, not a huge issue but I generally don't like to go 400 exactly.

This was the list I ran today, it won fairly easily although my opponent is still somewhat new to the game and I was helping him along.  It was hard to really guage the lists effectiveness.

Name: Tarkin Sovereign post tourney edit
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault: Station Assault
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Grand Moff Tarkin (38)
• Minister Tua (2)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Sovereign (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 187 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Arquitens Command Cruiser (59)
• Engine Techs (8)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 79 Points

Arquitens Command Cruiser (59)
• Engine Techs (8)
• Early Warning System (7)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 79 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 400

 

Just to add to the EWS on Arquitens discussion, I would say about half my turns it was very helpful, the others not so much.  At long range it was good, less effective at medium range and at short range (Arquitens hate short range) the jury is out.  It helped in that I could redirect damage then try and leave 2 shields in one of the 2 vulnerable arcs and let the other go to 0.  Then just EWS the arc with 0.  This was helpful for sure, not sure it was worth the 14 points to equip 2 Arquitens with it though.  Needs a little more testing.

Finally my last several games I have been able to get QBT to go off consistently and when I do it is absolutely brutal paired with a CF command.  Thats 5 long range dice, usually 3 red and 2 blue (always wait to add the CF die as occasionally you want the Red because you have IF to bail out bad roles).  Thats better than an ISD 2 at long range.  It evicerates ships so fast when it works your opponent doesn't know what hit them.  I find the Arquitens with ET fairly easy to line up long range double arcs on large ships and all those added blue dice are just deadly.

Edited by Thrindal

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I haven’t decided yet if the engine techs is necessary, or a gimmick.

If you drop down to LC and lose the gozanti you can fit another Arquitens.

Potentially this gain in firepower is worth the trade off, though you do lose some of your ability to force a fight as first player.

Got a game tonight, have some changes in mind.

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