Impact Grenades and stacking keywords.

[Ghost Dancer 401]

I can see both interpretations and no idea which one is correct. I initially read it as they don't stack (i.e. only different weapons stack their keywords) but there are good arguments against this.

Will just have to wait for an faq.

[RhymerNation 37]

A trooper unit has multiple weapons that fire - just like a unit of 2 speeder bikes has multiple weapons that fire. Each model in the unit is firing a weapon.

So continuing with Speeder Bikes. You are firing 2 weapons - 1 from each speeder bike. Each weapon has Impact 1. You pool the dice together and the attack pool now has Impact 2.

Impact Grenades are the same thing. You're firing 6 weapons from 6 troopers. Each weapon has Impact 1. You pool the dice together and the attack pool now has Impact 6.

 

As for the comparisons vs Vader, your 6 troopers are so unlikely to survive getting into grenade range that it's nearly a moot point. They are weapons of desperation, not of primary use and effectiveness.

[OldSchoolEmpire 80]

Correct me if I'm wrong but speeder bikes can't split fire, can they? On pg.15 Attack Pool. "An attack pool can consist of dice from different weapons, but all weapons with an identical name must contribute their dice to the same attack pool."

[OldSchoolEmpire 80]

I also agree with the consensus on impact, I think the argument could be made for both and I honestly just want a clearly defined example. Because the ambiguity is pretty thick! 

[steveisbig 152]

20 minutes ago, OldSchoolEmpire said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but speeder bikes can't split fire, can they? On pg.15 Attack Pool. "An attack pool can consist of dice from different weapons, but all weapons with an identical name must contribute their dice to the same attack pool."

Speeder bikes can split fire, if one uses the pistol and the other the mounted blaster.

[OldSchoolEmpire 80]

@steveisbig, you are correct sir! I guess my point was they can't use their cannons to target 2 separate targets which would support the theory of impact stacking as they both would receive impact 1 for each attack.  

Much to the same degree and thinking of 5 Storm Troopers using 5 impact grenades to attack multiple targets, they can't. They use 1 weapon with 1 key word (impact 1) and get 5 attack dice. But lets just say that the Same Storm Trooper Unit has 2 weapons with the key word Impact, Impact grenades = 1 weapon (Impact 1) and upgraded E-11's = 1 weapon (impact 2) - now the storm troopers are able to stack the impacts of 2 weapons 1+2 = (impact 3) 

-A weapon keyword is an inherent ability of a weapon and is presented as part of a weapon on either a unit’s card or an upgrade card. pg. 31 RR

 I guess this debate could go back and forth all day, and overall I'm seeing both sides of the debate. We do need clarification from FFG, and thankgod the rules reference is a living document that can be edited to address said issues. 

[NukeMaster 248]

While impact grenades have been the driving force behind this discussion the issue is going to arise with speeders more often. The next time anybody gets a chance to do a demo game with Alex make sure you shoot at an AT-RT with your speeders.

[RhymerNation 37]

Yeah, I think this is pretty cut n dry - no FAQ required - especially looking at the 5th bullet point under Attack Pool  on Page 15:

"Each weapon that contributes dice to attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

So yes, the weapons are identical, but they all add dice to the attack pool. When they add those dice, they also apply their keyword - which stacks.

 

Said another way, the reason you roll 5 white dice when you fire with your 5-man squad of Stormtroopers is because you have 5 weapons that each add 1 white die to the attack pool. If those E-11 blasters had a weapon keyword, you would apply it to the attack pool 5 times.

 

[Thoras 108]

10 minutes ago, RhymerNation said:

Yeah, I think this is pretty cut n dry - no FAQ required - especially looking at the 5th bullet point under Attack Pool  on Page 15:

"Each weapon that contributes dice to attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

So yes, the weapons are identical, but they all add dice to the attack pool. When they add those dice, they also apply their keyword - which stacks.

 

Said another way, the reason you roll 5 white dice when you fire with your 5-man squad of Stormtroopers is because you have 5 weapons that each add 1 white die to the attack pool. If those E-11 blasters had a weapon keyword, you would apply it to the attack pool 5 times.

 

Actually, the reason you add the number of dice equal to that weapon x number of mini’s is due to step 2c of the attack sequence.

This is the only place we’re told to apply something per mini I believe.

Since this is the only per mini reference, it’s makes it clear to the other side of the debate that all weapons of the same name are grouped when we discuss “weapons”.  That troop of storm troopers is all using the same weapon, not multiple weapons.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Thoras

[OMGBRICK 247]

10 minutes ago, RhymerNation said:

Yeah, I think this is pretty cut n dry - no FAQ required - especially looking at the 5th bullet point under Attack Pool  on Page 15:

"Each weapon that contributes dice to attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

So yes, the weapons are identical, but they all add dice to the attack pool. When they add those dice, they also apply their keyword - which stacks.

 

Said another way, the reason you roll 5 white dice when you fire with your 5-man squad of Stormtroopers is because you have 5 weapons that each add 1 white die to the attack pool. If those E-11 blasters had a weapon keyword, you would apply it to the attack pool 5 times.

 

The argument opposite this is: does the weapon Impact Grenade add dice to the pool (being one dice or five)? If yes, Impact Grenade adds it’s keyword - which is Impact 1. 

Im leaning more towards intent being grenades are stackable. But the wording isn’t explicit. 

[NeonWolf 942]

Hopefully FFG will release an updated RRG prior to Adepticon/Release Weekend.  That is what they have done with L5R and why they have gone to electronic RRG's, they can update the RRG instead of having to release a separate FAQ document.

[RhymerNation 37]

Right, Thoras, Step 2c says exactly that:

"Gather Dice: For each eligible mini [that] chose a weapon, the attacker gathers the number and type of dice depicted on that weapon...."

The Upgrade Card detail on Page 44 says:

"Some upgrade cards feature the hard point (?) or grenade (?) icons; these are weapon upgrades. These upgrades do not add any minis to a unit; instead, every mini in that unit may use that weapon when attacking the enemy."

 

So I have the Impact Grenade upgrade card attached to my Stormtrooper unit. That gives each mini the Impact Grenade weapon.

When I get to Step 2c, each of my Stormtrooper minis now have 2 weapons - E-11 Blaster and Impact Grenade.

For each mini I chose Impact Grenade as the weapon to fire, and so add 1 black dice for each of my Stormtrooper minis (in range, LOS, etc.).

As I add each of those weapons/dice to the attack pool, I add the keyword Impact 1.

These keywords stack in the attack pool, so I now have an attack pool of 5 black dice with the keyword Impact 5.

[Thoras 108]

15 minutes ago, RhymerNation said:

As I add each of those weapons/dice to the attack pool, I add the keyword Impact 1.

Actually, no, you don’t do anything with keywords until step 6.

You pick the weapon for each mini in step 2b. So you have 5 mini’s using the grenades weapon. No dice or keywords are in play yet.

Step 2c. You add the dice for each weapon, times the number of mini’s using that weapon. You have 5 black dice(no keywords). 5 mini’s using the single weapon, grenades.

Step 6. You now look at card abilities to modify the attack dice. We review how many weapons are in the pool at this point. One weapon, the grenades weapon. We see grenades have impact 1 on their card. No other weapons are in play to stack with, we modify the dice.

 

i entirely understand your interpretation based on the loose wording used to refer to “weapons” and on the mini vs on the unit. I think my above interpretation is more in line with the rules as worded and the demo from Alex, but I understand where this confusion is coming from.

I just dislike either side saying it’s clear cut. We wouldn’t be having the discussions if it was, not every single person in this debate is new to war games or rule books.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Thoras

[Tirion 2,223]

15 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

So the RRG presents an argument for both sides.

Against stacking - 

• If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
  • Taking emphasis on multiple would imply the same weapon cannot add its keywords to the attack more than once.
  • This is supported by the example:
    •  For example, a unit that performs an attack using both a weapon that has impact 1 and a weapon that has impact 2 contribute dice to the attack pool, that attack is treated as using a weapon that has impact 3 which allows that unit to change up to three hit (?) results to critical (?) results.
• Also, the keyword section has this, which supports multiple weapons need to be used: 
  • • Each weapon keyword adds an ability to the attack pool in which it is included.

Pro stacking -

• The attack step says you choose weapons for each mini.
  • b. Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.
• And the same section in Impact is used for the pro argument:
  • If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
• One could argue 5 minis selecting grenades counts as multiple weapons.

 

So basically we have yet to resolve the issue. Expect a day 1 FAQ. 

I expect a 6 month faq

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I expect a 6 month faq

L5R did this RRG format and fixed things very quickly. No ******* way I'm going to be playing a game where people will run up to vehicles and claim they have Impact 5.

[Tirion 2,223]

Just now, Undeadguy said:

L5R did this RRG format and fixed things very quickly. No ******* way I'm going to be playing a game where people will run up to vehicles and claim they have Impact 5.

I was being facetious

[RhymerNation 37]

8 minutes ago, Thoras said:

Actually, no, you don’t do anything with keywords until step 6.

You pick the weapon for each mini in step 2b. So you have 5 mini’s using the grenades weapon. No dice or keywords are in play yet.

Step 2c. You add the dice for each weapon, times the number of mini’s using that weapon. You have 5 black dice(no keywords). 5 mini’s using the single weapon, grenades.

Step 6. You now look at card abilities to modify the attack dice. We review how many weapons are in the pool at this point. One weapon, the grenades weapon. We see grenades have impact 1 on their card. No other weapons are in play to stack with, we modify the dice.

No, Step 6 is where the keywords modify the dice in the attack pool - they are not where they are applied to the attack pool.

I will concede the Attack section of the RRG does not actually cover where they are applied. However, the other text in the rulebook would be moot, specifically:

"• Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

I am adding 5 black dice from 5 Impact Grenade Weapons. I have to add Impact 1 (times 5) to my attack pool. Those affects are then applied in Step 2c as the dice are added to the pool.

At Step 6, I then modify the attack dice using the ability Impact 5.

Edited February 27, 2018 by RhymerNation

[Tirion 2,223]

1 minute ago, RhymerNation said:

No, Step 6 is where the keywords modify the dice in the attack pool - they are not where they are applied to the attack pool.

I will concede the Attack section of the RRG does not actually cover where they are applied. However, the other text in the rulebook would be moot, specifically:

"• Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

 

Yeah each weapon applies it's keywords is not the same as stack that keyword for each instance of that weapon

[Grabaarz 27]

I think we need to look at granades upgrade card keyword, with same way as with targeting scopes.

Granades give impact 1.

 

Answer me this question :

What impact two speederbikes have with their canons? 

If 1 - granades dont stack

If 2 - granades stack 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Grabaarz

[Thoras 108]

7 minutes ago, RhymerNation said:

No, Step 6 is where the keywords modify the dice in the attack pool - they are not where they are applied to the attack pool.

I will concede the Attack section of the RRG does not actually cover where they are applied. However, the other text in the rulebook would be moot, specifically:

"• Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool."

I am adding 5 black dice from 5 Impact Grenade Weapons. I have to add Impact 1 (times 5) to my attack pool. Those affects are then applied in Step 2c as the dice are added to the pool.

At Step 6, I then modify the attack dice using the ability Impact 5.

I’ll agree it’s not explicit where the keywords are applied, although I think it’s suggestive they don’t come into play until step 6, I agree I have no firm proof of that.

Im not sure how that bullet point would be moot under my interpretation though? 4 of the troopers choose the grenade, 1 chooses the heavy rocket weapon. That’s where that bullet point comes into play

[RhymerNation 37]

2 minutes ago, Thoras said:

I’ll agree it’s not explicit where the keywords are applied, although I think it’s suggestive they don’t come into play until step 6, I agree I have no firm proof of that.

Im not sure how that bullet point would be moot under my interpretation though? 4 of the troopers choose the grenade, 1 chooses the heavy rocket weapon. That’s where that bullet point comes into play

 

10 minutes ago, Tirion said:

Yeah each weapon applies it's keywords is not the same as stack that keyword for each instance of that weapon

Agreed on both points.

I did a quick search through the RRG to see if they reference how abilities stack, and the word "stack" only returns 1 search result in the document - which relates to the command token stack

The Learn to Play document does cover it, but RRG overrides L2P, etc. etc. etc.

I'll have to keep looking myself

 

[Thoras 108]

3 minutes ago, RhymerNation said:

 

Agreed on both points.

I did a quick search through the RRG to see if they reference how abilities stack, and the word "stack" only returns 1 search result in the document - which relates to the command token stack

The Learn to Play document does cover it, but RRG overrides L2P, etc. etc. etc.

I'll have to keep looking myself

 

I’m actually not sure there is a generic rule. Impact refers to it as a cumulative benefit.

interestingly, precise doesn’t have the same wording. I’m sure the Alex Davies demo said precise on stormtroopers and precise on a scope would stack, but I’m not seeing anything for that yet

[OccasionallyCorrect 347]

Ignoring the rules reference entirely, 5 points seems seriously undercosted for an entire trooper squad to get a black die plus impact x however many units are in that squad.  That's what makes me think it doesnt stack.

[RhymerNation 37]

So right, the Arsenal 2 ability granted by General Weiss would be 100% moot if that ability did not "stack" or was not "cumulative" with the Arsenal 2 ability listed on the AT-ST.

"If you stack this with the AT-ST’s pre-existing Arsenal keyword, you gain Arsenal 4—enough to make an attack with every single one of the AT-ST’s weapons!" 

 

However, the L2P Document does specifically address weapon keywords on page 15:

"Weapon keywords are cumulative; when performing an attack that includes two weapons that have the impact 1 keyword, these two keywords combine to add up to impact 2."

This can really only apply to the Speeder Bikes in the Learn to Play scenario - two identical weapons with the same keyword.

This leads me to say the stacking "Impact 5" has to be true.

But I do agree for now - Circumstantial Evidence at best

[RhymerNation 37]

1 minute ago, OccasionallyCorrect said:

Ignoring the rules reference entirely, 5 points seems seriously undercosted for an entire trooper squad to get a black die plus impact x however many units are in that squad.  That's what makes me think it doesnt stack.

See, that's what I think is just not the case. Having played at least a few games on TTS so far, you're just not going to get 5 dice with impact 5 on an armored target.

It looks great on paper, but Range 1 is really hard to get to and your Troopers are just not that survivable.