Impact Grenades and stacking keywords.

[Orcdruid 500]

Some people think that if this weapon keyword stacks when used by multiple minis in the same squad that it would cost more. I disagree. Heres why.

A standard trooper unit can have 4-6 minis if they all use the impact grenades on an armored unit the average number of hits/crits before cover works out to be:

Without surges; surge-hit; surge-crit

4minis(4m)-1.5/.5; 2/.5; 1.5/1

5m- 1.875/.625; 2.5/.625; 1.875/1.25

6m-  2.25/.75; 3/.75; 2.25/1.5

Now to apply cover/dodge then impact.

# of saves after 0, 1, 2, 3 hits removed

4m- 2, 1, .5, .5/ 2.5, 1.5, .5, .5/ 2.5, 1.5, 1, 1

5m- 2.5, 1.5, .625, .625/ 3.125, 2.125, 1.125, .625/ 3.125, 2.125, 1.25, 1.25

6m- 3, 2, 1, .75/ 3.75, 2.75, 1.75, .75/ 3.75, 2.75, 1.75, 1.5

No to roll the saves. All currently spoiled units with armor have white defense with surge-block so 2/3rds of the hits will go through leading to these average wound results.

4m- 1.33, .67, .33, .33/ 1.67, 1, .33, .33/ 1.67, 1, .67, .67

5m- 1.67, 1, .417, .417/ 2.083, 1.413, .743, .417/ 2.083, 1.413, .83, .83

6m- 2, 1.33, .67, .5/ 2.5, 1.83, 1.16, .5/ 2.5, 1.83, 1.16, 1

So, on average, we are looking at 0-2 wounds to a vehicle after being attacked by a whole unit of troopers within range one. And yes range one is a big deal because it means that unless your whole unit is in that vehicles rear arc you are getting shot at when it activates in most cases.

[Amanal 2,557]

I am sure the handy-dandy rules reference may provide a clearer idea as to what happens here.

I lean the opposite way myself, because I think the card would say something like: "Impact X: Where X is the number of models in the Unit."

That said I don't think the Learn to Play is clear either way, so who knows you maybe right and I may be crazy.

[DarkJello 43]

Did the other thread get locked?  Clarification on stacking is still needed.  Imma wait.

Edited February 19, 2018 by DarkJello
Added a few words.

[Amanal 2,557]

BTW: I find that HTML and Forums really make it hard to display and therefore read statistics and probabilities. It can be easier just to take an image off the screen using the snipping tool and pasting in a nice picture. For example:

[Derrault 1,091]

46 minutes ago, Amanal said:

I am sure the handy-dandy rules reference may provide a clearer idea as to what happens here.

I lean the opposite way myself, because I think the card would say something like: "Impact X: Where X is the number of models in the Unit."

That said I don't think the Learn to Play is clear either way, so who knows you maybe right and I may be crazy.

Then it would grant impact 6 for a 6 mini units where only one uses the grenade. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Derrault

[DelGriffen 167]

I think the debate is how the keywords stack. I believe, maybe incorrectly, that impact grenades only give the keyword once to the entire unit. The same way the speeder bikes do. 

[oddeye 560]

Im thinking it doesnt stack sadly.. thematically it should but honestly its 1 upgrade card, like targeting scopes.  If it stacked like that targeting scopes would give you precise 6... lol 

[Derrault 1,091]

5 minutes ago, oddeye said:

Im thinking it doesnt stack sadly.. thematically it should but honestly its 1 upgrade card, like targeting scopes.  If it stacked like that targeting scopes would give you precise 6... lol 

Precise isn’t a weapon key word though; impact is. The rules actually go out of their way to distinguish between those things. 

[Orcdruid 500]

3 hours ago, Amanal said:

BTW: I find that HTML and Forums really make it hard to display and therefore read statistics and probabilities. It can be easier just to take an image off the screen using the snipping tool and pasting in a nice picture. For example:

If I had a computer I would but all I have atm is my phone. Hopefully my charts wern't too hard to interpret though.

[Amanal 2,557]

Google up "free spreadsheets for my phone/tablet" iOS has numbers which is quite nice, and some decent graphics tools. Androids probably have google docs access and probably a handful of others. Failing that I'd be happy to help now and again.

 

[Ghost Dancer 401]

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

Precise isn’t a weapon key word though; impact is. The rules actually go out of their way to distinguish between those things. 

As I understand it, the LtP is referring to different weapon types in regard to keyword stacking. The speederbikes are a good example as there are 2 of them but still only have Impact 1 in all the examples/demos I've seen.

Either way, this has been debated ad nauseum in another thread, and until we see the rules ref or faq I don't think anyone will be changing their mind anytime soon.

[DelGriffen 167]

Okay, so it does look like they stack.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

So the RRG presents an argument for both sides.

Against stacking - 

• If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
  • Taking emphasis on multiple would imply the same weapon cannot add its keywords to the attack more than once.
  • This is supported by the example:
    •  For example, a unit that performs an attack using both a weapon that has impact 1 and a weapon that has impact 2 contribute dice to the attack pool, that attack is treated as using a weapon that has impact 3 which allows that unit to change up to three hit (?) results to critical (?) results.
• Also, the keyword section has this, which supports multiple weapons need to be used: 
  • • Each weapon keyword adds an ability to the attack pool in which it is included.

Pro stacking -

• The attack step says you choose weapons for each mini.
  • b. Choose Weapons: The attacker can choose one weapon from each eligible mini to contribute to the attack pool. To choose a weapon, the attacker must meet all requirements indicated by that weapon’s keywords, and that weapon’s range must include the range of the attack, as determined from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest mini of the defender.
• And the same section in Impact is used for the pro argument:
  • If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative.
• One could argue 5 minis selecting grenades counts as multiple weapons.

 

So basically we have yet to resolve the issue. Expect a day 1 FAQ. 

[VictoryLeo 146]

I'm honestly thinking it's just poor wording. I think it does read as they stack but I don't think that's the intent. I think it's supposed to say that if you equip the grenade ALL minis in the unit can use the grenade but it's not supposed to be all at the same time. FFG will correct this at some point. Otherwise you get the meta play of units just all lobbing grenades over and over, which distracts from a fun minis game to roll better results. They should've added deviation to it so it's at least somewhat accurate (plus another template to sell!).

[Caldias 2,210]

Has anyone bothered to submit this as a rules question?  Probably so, but worth asking.

[samusthe17 82]

As the rules are worded in the RRG, a speeder bike unit of two speeder minis each chooses a weapon. The speeder minis each opt to use their main guns, which have the keyword Impact 1. Since Impact is cumulative, a unit of speeder bikes de facto has Impact 2 until 1 bike mini dies.

Edited February 27, 2018 by samus17

[DelGriffen 167]

Yep that’s how I am reading it as well. We definitely need clarification. 

[DarkJello 43]

Basic troopers can have Impact 6 while Vader has Impact 3???  I sense a disturbance in the force.

[Amanal 2,557]

I'll go with the last bullet of the Weapons (p46) Glossary:

"While attacking, each mini in a unit that is equipped with a grenade or hardpoint upgrade may use that weapon instead of another weapon on their unit card or equipped upgrade card."

[Squark 2,555]

45 minutes ago, DarkJello said:

Basic troopers can have Impact 6 while Vader has Impact 3???  I sense a disturbance in the force.

Those basic troopers are less accurate and don't have pierce, so even if they have a higher impact value, they'll almost certainly inflict less damage. So a lightsaber is still superior to 6 anti-vehicle grenades.

[DarkJello 43]

1 hour ago, Squark said:

Those basic troopers are less accurate and don't have pierce, so even if they have a higher impact value, they'll almost certainly inflict less damage. So a lightsaber is still superior to 6 anti-vehicle grenades.

Vader costs a lot more points than 6 troopers equipped with grenades.

[Derrault 1,091]

2 minutes ago, DarkJello said:

Vader costs a lot more points than 6 troopers equipped with grenades.

And his efficacy never drops from wounds, whereas every wound a trooper unit takes removes a die (and a potential impact). 

[JPGebby 0]

I'm honestly don't see the complication with interpretation. Even if they intended it to only be Impact 1 total, the wording doesn't say that. Having a multiple of something simply means there is more than one, doesn't imply that they have to be different.

"If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact keyword are cumulative."

If a unit of troopers all decide to use an impact grenade for each model, they each contribute one black die to the attack pool with Impact 1. It's multiple black dice that each have Impact 1 that are contributed to the same attack pool. So for now, I'm considering this to mean that they do stack. If that is truly FFG's intention, however, is another question. But until it gets answered, I'm treating it as that they do, in fact, stack.

Edited February 27, 2018 by JPGebby

[Big Easy 429]

9 hours ago, Derrault said:

And his efficacy never drops from wounds, whereas every wound a trooper unit takes removes a die (and a potential impact). 

And grenades are only useful at Range 1. Melee renders them useless, as does being more than 6" away. Is the plan to run 6 troops up in an open field and start lobbing at a unit in cover for a chance to roll some white dice? Sounds like the effect of impact 6 is balanced well enough.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Big Easy

[Sk3tch 571]

If I throw 5 grenades at something I expect it to have impact 5.  That's just my gut feeling. 

Page 15: RRG

Each weapon that is used during an attack contributes one or more dice to an attack pool. (So my grenades are contributing their dice 5 times)

Each weapon that contributes dice to an attack pool also applies its keywords to that attack pool. (So my 5 grenades are 5 weapons adding Impact 1 to the dice pool each time)

Impact X Entry: RRG

• If a unit performs an attack using multiple weapons that have the impact x keyword and those weapons contribute dice to the same attack pool, the x values of each impact x keyword are cumulative. (So my 5 grenades are 5 weapons adding Impact 1 to the dice pool each time)

It seems clear as day to me. It stacks, It also gets shot to pieces very quickly, and won't be the easiest to get is position.