The Rule of Two is really silly, and I just realized why.

[Endersai 513]

21 hours ago, LordBritish said:

Now hang on there, Midi Chorians do make sense. Are you telling me that after thousands of years of studying the force, that it's entirely reasonable that the Jedi didn't even attempt to develop one method of identifying factors that collaborate in the force? To me it makes perfect sense, Midi cholorians aren't the force but they just gather in association to where the force is strong as some kind of bi-product, that can be measured in relation to proficiency in the force according to statistical trends. Why? So that Jedi can know at a glance whether someone is worth training or not; given that taking a padawan is a commitment that can last many years.

Now that in itself can indicate how far the Jedi had drifted from the will of the force into their republic protector role, but fundamentally from someone who has actually looked at cell cultures before, the prospect of analysing biproducts of a metabolic reaction makes perfect sense. I took much more issue with the "Chosen one" vague mumbling that is never explicitly explained, or Yoda knowing that the Sith are always in two's then a off hand comment on a scanner that indicates that this kid "might" be something special.

Everything else I agree with though.


Regarding the rule of two: It made sense from secusion, and given how one not actively drawing on the force could hide among senators for an exceedingly long length of time makes sense. But it really a bit of meta knowledge, and Sidious's grand plan might have been doomed had he not lined Dooku up (I had the impression that he had groomed the old man about the time the Trade Federation was starting to make moves.)

The issue with the midichlorians, and why they were abandoned so quickly afterwards, is that it takes the metaphysical and makes it physical. Star Wars is not science fiction, it's space fantasy. Scientific-style explanations do not enhance this genre, especially when they try to ground a form of magic in organic chemistry (essentially). Can you clone midichlorians? Experiment on them? Siphon them?

 

[nameless ronin 706]

40 minutes ago, Endersai said:

The issue with the midichlorians, and why they were abandoned so quickly afterwards, is that it takes the metaphysical and makes it physical. Star Wars is not science fiction, it's space fantasy. Scientific-style explanations do not enhance this genre, especially when they try to ground a form of magic in organic chemistry (essentially). Can you clone midichlorians? Experiment on them? Siphon them?

Does it matter? They don’t do anything, other than allowing an estimate of someone’s connection to the Force. Unless you wanted to manipulate those estimates to pretend to be stronger or weaker in the Force, there’s no point to all this.

Midichlorians served one purpose, and that was to allow Qui-gon to suspect that Anakin was the Chosen One from the prophecy. That’s it. Purpose served, never need to be mentioned again.

Edited March 15, 2018 by nameless ronin

[LordBritish 1,016]

15 hours ago, Endersai said:

The issue with the midichlorians, and why they were abandoned so quickly afterwards, is that it takes the metaphysical and makes it physical. Star Wars is not science fiction, it's space fantasy. Scientific-style explanations do not enhance this genre, especially when they try to ground a form of magic in organic chemistry (essentially). Can you clone midichlorians? Experiment on them? Siphon them?

 

If I recall midichlorians was mentioned once and not expanded upon, so their actual relationship with the force is unknown. Do they directly feed on the force? Are they the 5th chain down? Or are they just like mitocondriea and just sit inside the body, an bacteria converted into a power factory? I suspect Lucas based Midi on mitocondria due to their similar sounding names and his tendency to give bad names when pressed in interview, thus might actually have an active role in making one force sensitive by producing some unknown process that makes one more attuned to the metaphysical plane, though the precise mechanism in which it does so would need (or may not need) exploration.

Man, I can't believe I made that comparison until I thought about it now, Midicholrians are another example of Luca's looking at one thing and pasting into another. XD

Alternatively it can be debated that Midicholrians can be stimulated to occupy a host via extensive training. That is a interesting perspective that would explain precisely why only Luke can call on the force, but is it entirely a biological response? Or is it something that can be conditioned with training? Is midicholrians the only way one can be force sensitive, or is it an easily available measuring stick that can reject other, promising candidates? I've probably spent much more thought on it then Lucas ever did, which is a general problem with how Star Wars developed; he put together a good idea but always struggled with the details and then tried to cover up those details with band aids, he was a director ahead of his time, sloppy production flaws and all. XD

But in either case, due to the way the plot was set up they needed a way of identifying why Annie was important (e.g. Unlike Luke he didn't have any direct connections with his mentor figure initially.) and a simple biological test was it. "Wow, this reading is off the charts compared to most people who join the temple, I definitely need to recruit this boy as he might be significant figure in the future if trained well!", compared to the alternative "I don't have a mentor figure, but I always knew I would be a Jedi due to these visions, so I trained myself" of Rey (keeping in mind that she might still be a mystery/loot box as far as plot goes, e.g. not a nobody at all, in the same way that Leia suddenly became Luke's sister.), it's really a matter of picking the delivery. 

[Dayham 198]

Midiclorians are mentioned again, but what really sticks with me is in The Clone Wars, when Yoda is learning how to become a force ghost from Qui-Gon's voice and some Emotional archetype force presence things.

Yes.

He goes into a nebula, disappears, and wakes up on a weird planet. They tell him that this is the "origin of what your science calls midiclorians" 

I personally don't mind them, they don't generate the Force, just connect it. Another way of the Living Force feeding the Cosmic Force.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Dayham

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

On 3/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, Endersai said:

Can you clone midichlorians? Experiment on them? Siphon them?

Those questions are about as relevant to the movies as a discussion about galactic currency standards.

[Archlyte 1,227]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:08 PM, nameless ronin said:

Does it matter? They don’t do anything, other than allowing an estimate of someone’s connection to the Force. Unless you wanted to manipulate those estimates to pretend to be stronger or weaker in the Force, there’s no point to all this.

Midichlorians served one purpose, and that was to allow Qui-gon to suspect that Anakin was the Chosen One from the prophecy. That’s it. Purpose served, never need to be mentioned again.

I would hope that would be the case, but what a can of worms that was. I also don't like the idea of them quantifying power in the Force of an individual other than by what they actually do. I always knew Yoda was super powerful even before midichloriens, and I suspected it even before he lifted that X-wing. George messed up imo.

[nameless ronin 706]

7 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I would hope that would be the case, but what a can of worms that was. I also don't like the idea of them quantifying power in the Force of an individual other than by what they actually do. I always knew Yoda was super powerful even before midichloriens, and I suspected it even before he lifted that X-wing. George messed up imo.

Yoda was strong in the Force at every point we ever saw him. Anakin wasn’t. That’s the whole difference. Qui-gon - or rather, the script - needed a way to notice the potential for strength, rather than to recognize strength itself. The midichlorian thing was certainly a bit hamfisted, but that goes for quite a few things in the prequels (and several of the other movies as well).

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Yoda was strong in the Force at every point we ever saw him. Anakin wasn’t. That’s the whole difference. Qui-gon - or rather, the script - needed a way to notice the potential for strength, rather than to recognize strength itself. The midichlorian thing was certainly a bit hamfisted, but that goes for quite a few things in the prequels (and several of the other movies as well).

How did we know Yoda was strong in the Force? Well the context, dialogue, and the way the character was handled did that. Anakin could have been written that way too and not have to take the blood sample. They could have had a shot where Qui Gon watches the boy do something or say something and has that realization. "I sense something very powerful about this boy, something I have only sensed when in the presence of master yoda." No physical metric and the mystique is preserved. It would have been good too because it would have used Yoda (and already established landmark) as the relative point of reference. 

[nameless ronin 706]

4 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

How did we know Yoda was strong in the Force? Well the context, dialogue, and the way the character was handled did that. Anakin could have been written that way too and not have to take the blood sample. They could have had a shot where Qui Gon watches the boy do something or say something and has that realization. "I sense something very powerful about this boy, something I have only sensed when in the presence of master yoda." No physical metric and the mystique is preserved. It would have been good too because it would have used Yoda (and already established landmark) as the relative point of reference. 

They did that with the podracing. That was the reason Qui-gon suspected Anakin was Force-sensitive. They still wanted Anakin’s connection to the Force, and thus his power, to be small though - but while still having some kind of evidence for the Council. Again, hamfisted, but there was a logic behind it. The script required Anakin to need saving. They wanted the arc from innocent child that needed others and that we could root for to Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Endersai 513]

Yes but the problem with the midichlorian aspect is it that it links to something that happened to Lucas The Person since ROTJ - he stopped having a wonderous sense of his creations and got bogged down trying to rationalise it. The much maligned nuked-fridge from Crystal Skull is another aspect - in the BTS documentaries, Spielberg says Lucas had pages of research to support the idea a lead-lined fridge would survive the blast. OK but you didn't have this when Mola Ram ripped a heart out. You didn't have midichlorians explain why Yoda was a powerful master or why Luke had a destiny.

Just, trust the audience will figure it out. We know why Rey is powerful now, thanks to TLJ - as Ren gets stronger, the light manifests itself in an avatar to balance him. No talk of micro-organisms needed.

[Desslok 13,571]

My take on them? They were another symptom of how broken the Jedi order was, the Jedi equivalent of reading tea leaves. It may or may not have been scientifically accurate, but it was part of the rote and routine that was holding the Jedi Order down before Anakin deconstructed it.

Also, the thinking is backwards: a person with a high midi count is not strong in the force, a person strong in the force has a high midi count. It's a bit like skin pigmentation in humans - more sunlight in the equatorial regions = more melanin, and not the other way around.

[Archlyte 1,227]

I think another problem I have with this is that it's bad guy worship, and details that I don't think make the Sith more scary. I would have preferred the Sith remain shrouded in mystery and lies. The rule of two, if it had to be presented, would have been ok if it was immediately cast into serious doubt.