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Green Knight

Deployment of Profundity doll

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So can the ship a profundity drops overlap squadrons?

Was a consensus reached? I don't think so.

My reaction is: you can't.

Unlike Raddus (no) and Hyper Assault (Yes), profundity doesn't say.

But during deployment you cannot stack a ship on top of another ship - or squadron (don't make me dig up the image of the piled ships).

And this IS deployment, albeit with a twist.

Commence petty quarreling!

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I'm going with "no."  Not because the rules explicitly said so, but because I'm not going back to that **** stacked ships argument.

 

Profundity doesn't explicitly address deploying on top of squadrons, so we default back to the RRG.  Which, of course, is technically silent on the issue. 

So, play it as you normally play deployment. 

Do you currently allow players to deploy ships on top of squadrons during Setup?  If so, by all means, you should continue to allow that for the Profundity deployment, because it is in all respects a deployment, with the sole exceptions laid out on the card.

Of course, you can't overlap already-deployed ships or squadrons during Setup.  Just as you can't deploy ships upside-down or on the next table over.  Whether this is by convention or it's buried in the L2P somewhere, I don't care enough to look.  So neither can Profundity's dollie do so.

Edited by Ardaedhel

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Ladies & Gentleman of the jury we here by present our evidence in the case of "NO YOU CANT"

 

exhibit a - title card Profundity, notice the key word 'deploy'.  You will also notice that a 'setup area' of Distance 1 is also detailed

exhibit b - page 10 of the Rule Reference tells us how to use the setup area for deploying a ship

Quote

Ships must be placed within their player’s deployment zones. When a player places a ship, he must set its speed dial to a speed available on its speed chart

 

Quote

Ships and squadrons can be placed on top of the setup area markers as long as they remain entirely within the setup area

exhibit c - page 17 of the LTP

 If a ship would overlap another ship or squadron, players use the following rules depending on the type of plastic model that the ship overlapped.

  whilst this is talking of movement it informs us that after the setup phase no ship or sqn may say the same space on the table.

 

The defence awaits the prosecutions reponse

 

Edited by slasher956

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58 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Ladies & Gentleman of the jury we here by present our evidence in the case of "NO YOU CANT"

 

exhibit a - title card Profundity, notice the key word 'deploy'.  You will also notice that a 'setup area' of Distance 1 is also detailed

exhibit b - page 10 of the Rule Reference tells us how to use the setup area for deploying a ship

 

Where is any word that you cannot deploy ships overlapping other squadrons or ships in your quote? :P (this is the whole reason for the funny pics from @DiabloAzul)

And the rules you quoted are for the setup. For the start. Not for anything that happen during the match. And it clearly say "in the deployment zone". The deployment zone is:

Deployment Zone
A player’s deployment zone is the portion of the setup area that is within distance 1–3 of his edge of the play area.

 

On some other cards it is written if you are allowed to overlap with obstacles/squadrons/ships. Even when you are never allowed to place a ship overlapping a ship (even if it is nowhere writen, as DiabloAzul want to say with the pics ;)).

For example:
Raddus. He says: " cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons ".
Hyperspace assault (HA) on the other hand say that the ship can be overlapping squadrons, and that these are replaced like it is after a ship movement over squadrons.
Grav Shift Reroute clearly says: " Obstacles cannot overlap tokens, obstacles, or ships".
Rapid Launch Bays (RLB) does not say anything about overlapping as well. But this might because squadron cannot overlap ships or squadrons, at least writen in Overlapping as part of movement. In this case "place". And RLB also use "place".

From these two ship deploy examples (Raddus and HA) you cannot clearly say if the ship from the Profundity can overlap squadrons or not. I would say it can, and its deploy is resolved like a movment overlapping squadrons (like HA). And because RLB also use the ruling from the movement for squadrons. But it can be as well that it is not allowed, and meant to be like Raddus.

 

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@Tokra except we have that the rules that do say ships cant overlap ships during movement...which is the only written way a ship can change location after the setup phase.  

So either this deployment is a type of movement and governed by the movement overlap rules OR it is a deployment and cant happen at all because it has missed the window for deployment, that is the setup phase because there is no defined setup area.  After all the Profundity card doesnt state that the area within range 1 of the Profundity is the new ships setup area.  

\devils advocate taking advantage of lose wording aimed at RAI not RAW  :P

Edited by slasher956

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13 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

@Tokra except we have that the rules that do say ships cant overlap ships during movement...which is the only written way a ship can change location after the setup phase.  

So either this deployment is a type of movement and governed by the movement overlap rules OR it is a deployment and cant happen at all because it has missed the window for deployment, that is the setup phase because there is no defined setup area.  After all the Profundity card doesnt state that the area within range 1 of the Profundity is the new ships setup area.  

\devils advocate taking advantage of lose wording aimed at RAI not RAW  :P

I agree that the deployment from the upgrade cards should use the deployment from the setup. I am 100% behind this. Somehow you have to deploy the ships, and the setup is the only source for it. But the "deployment zone" is just a clear ruled area and should not be used for the upgrade deployment area (yes, a bit petty, i know).

But there is no word in the setup or deployment or eveywhere else that the ships cannot deployed overlapping ships or squadrons (again, this is the reason for the pic and again a bit petty).
Of course is it forbidden to overlap ships with other ships on deployment. Alone for the reason that there is no rule how to handle overlapped ships.
There is a rule what happend when a ship overlap with squadrons on movement and there is even a card that allow a deployment overlapping with squadrons. On the other side there is as well a card that deny the deployment overlapping with squadrons. So you have both, and on these cards it is written. Here we have a card that clearly does not say the one or other.

 

I would even go this far that an overlap from a ship with squadrons is allowed during setup, and the normal overlap after a movement is being used (but this is my interpretation).
But this is because i would say that deploy is the same as movement. As in the place of the ship or squadron at the final destination.

  • A ship cannot end the movement overlapping another ship => a ship cannot be deployed overlapping another ship.
  • A squadron cannot end the movement overlapping a ship or another squadron => a squadron cannot be deployed (or placed) overlapping a ship or another squadron.
  • A ship can overlap a squadron with movement => a ship can be deployed overlapping a squadron (unless a card clearly says cannot!). The squadrons are replaced like it is done after movement.

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4 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But during deployment you cannot stack a ship on top of another ship - or squadron (don't make me dig up the image of the piled ships).

3 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Of course, you can't overlap already-deployed ships or squadrons during Setup.  Just as you can't deploy ships upside-down or on the next table over.  Whether this is by convention or it's buried in the L2P somewhere, I don't care enough to look.  So neither can Profundity's dollie do so.

I looked through the L2P, RRG and the FAQ, I cant find any rule saying that you cant deploy on top of squadrons. In the faq they clearly states that they cant overlap ships, no mention of squadrons at all. However, the rule how to deal with overlapping squadrons are very easy to find, so the stacking of ships really doesnt apply. I can even find reasons for using the rules to get to move my squadrons during deployment. This feels just like one more FFG template problem because they dont use standardized wording in their games.

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I'm gonna go with the ruling that yes, you can deploy these ships on top of squadrons, with the same results as moving on top of them. As above, I see no rule saying not to, and one rule saying what to do when you do it.

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I may have missed when and where it was finally clarified (or it wasn't?), but can Profundity deploy small ship overlapping squadrons or not? How it was ruled during Worlds?

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On 5/13/2018 at 1:07 AM, noggin said:

I may have missed when and where it was finally clarified (or it wasn't?), but can Profundity deploy small ship overlapping squadrons or not? How it was ruled during Worlds?

I think this will need an FAQ.  There's precedent for both ways and a ruling at worlds won't satisfy the opposing crowd.

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