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Zura

Dueling fix is easy.

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After reading the dueling dilemma topic i wanted to share my solution that brings the tension back to duels. It works and i know it because when playing my first games we messed up the rules and played dusls differenly which lead us to making them more interesting.

 

Let us play actions after the bid and before reveal, but only the actions that actually target one of the dueling characters. 

 

That's it, done. Dueling fixed, now nothing is certain.

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But making "nothing certain" in dueling kills dueling.
Why would I (anyone really), as a player, play a card out of my hand that I don't have faith will help me advance towards my victory? If I win, it's no better than if I played a card that didn't have a built-in gamble, and if I lose, I both suffer a card effect and lose a card from hand and essentially forfeit my action, which kind of amounts to my opponent getting up to 3 actions against me in a row.
I'd rather just play a card I know will help me. :)

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1 hour ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

But making "nothing certain" in dueling kills dueling.
Why would I (anyone really), as a player, play a card out of my hand that I don't have faith will help me advance towards my victory? If I win, it's no better than if I played a card that didn't have a built-in gamble, and if I lose, I both suffer a card effect and lose a card from hand and essentially forfeit my action, which kind of amounts to my opponent getting up to 3 actions against me in a row.
I'd rather just play a card I know will help me. :)

I could not agree more. While I think right now that bully dueling exists with PD mostly, I do think once we get a larger card pool PD will fade away into very specific decks rather than everyone's and its strength will be lessened. I think the mechanic itself is perfectly fine and is not need in repair.

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:41 PM, Zura said:

After reading the dueling dilemma topic i wanted to share my solution that brings the tension back to duels. It works and i know it because when playing my first games we messed up the rules and played dusls differenly which lead us to making them more interesting.

 

Let us play actions after the bid and before reveal, but only the actions that actually target one of the dueling characters. 

 

That's it, done. Dueling fixed, now nothing is certain.

I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see cards that have reactions to duels.  Kakita Blade grants 2 political when dueling.  You have cards that can change the honor dial.  It's really not so far fetched to think that there could be other cards that have some sort of interaction with duels after they have begun.  I just wouldn't expect there to be a rules change to simply open up another action window within an existing action window.

In the old game there were plenty of reactions to duels.  Poisioned Weapon comes to mind.  No reason why they can't convert that kind of interaction into the dueling system of the lcg. 

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On 2/12/2018 at 7:05 PM, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

But making "nothing certain" in dueling kills dueling.
Why would I (anyone really), as a player, play a card out of my hand that I don't have faith will help me advance towards my victory? If I win, it's no better than if I played a card that didn't have a built-in gamble, and if I lose, I both suffer a card effect and lose a card from hand and essentially forfeit my action, which kind of amounts to my opponent getting up to 3 actions against me in a row.
I'd rather just play a card I know will help me. :)

Because it allows them to make a more powerful card for it's cost, by adding a risk factor to it - either you choose to accept the risk, choose to build your deck to minimize the risk, or play a weaker card. Mechanically, it offers them another way to design cards, one that also (in theory) provides an additional opportunity for player interaction (and yeah, control players often hate player interaction, but it's generally good for the game).

The problem with 'risk free' dueling is that it removes the point of having the mechanic existing - you might as well just put a stat cap on it or something similar (Think Rout/Outwit). But that's boring, and it feels like dueling *should* be a relevant, flavourful mechanic - even if players will often find a way to get around that anyway.

As it stands, I do just think they need to add some element of risk to 'sure thing' duels - it really would only take a couple of cards spread across the factions to shake things up without having to tear down the whole system.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Abyss said:

The problem with 'risk free' dueling is that it removes the point of having the mechanic existing

Dueling isn't risk-free though.
The vast majority of characters have "within-the-margins" stat differences, and in order to actually get outside those margins you have to invest pretty heavily into a single character (whether through high base cost or the extra cost of attachments).

Since the vast majority of the time you won't be in the "guaranteed to win" zone, the only way to ensure you get your effect is to gamble your Honor away, which is a very significant cost (it's a direct victory mechanic for goodness sake, lol). If you don't want to gamble your Honor away, you run the risk of having your own played card used against you, which is a waaaay worse feeling than losing as the defending duelist.

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32 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

The second they introduce a Conflict card that has an interrupt that switches the duel to a different skill, allows for redirection of a target, or just simply Kharmic Strikes and discards both targets, then this Policy Debate hate disappears. 

Please don’t hold your breath - a card as you suggest will never happen. 

(IMO, Policy Debate is the most ‘broken’ event card, continues to be, and possibly will always hold the title... let me stop here before another thread becomes hijacked by PD) 

Edited by LordBlunt

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11 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Please don’t hold your breath - a card as you suggest will never happen. 

 

  Just curious here - Silverfox13 suggested 3 cards. Do you think none of them will happen, or just the last? Specifically:

  - A card that switches the duel stat. As written, probably not - but I could see a more restricted one, like if your courtier is targeted by a military duel, switch the stat to political (or the other way around if a bushi is challenged as a separate card.)

  - A card that allows redirection of the duel. I think this is highly likely, it's practically the role of a yojimbo. 

  - A Kharmic Strike equivalent. This one, I agree, is unlikely as written, discarding both targets. A post-duel reaction, however, that mitigates a duel, or in some way penalizes the winner, I can see (of course, I'm so incredibly vague in my description there that I'll easily be able to claim vindication in future sets ;))

  Anyway, more just curious what you were thinking about the individual proposals. I like duels to have big effects, so I recognize that there has to be some risk to the initiator. These seem rational approaches.

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I think cards that answer to duels will appear in a clan Pack, most likely Crane. They’ll be niche, but they’ll serve a specific purpose if there ever is a duel-heavy meta. 

I feel that is like the millionth time I say this, but I posted some fanmade cards a while ago that can serve this purpose, and they allowed for at least some interaction during duels, without meaning an auto-lose for the challenger. If I recall correctly, the simplest one was something like: Dishonor the challenged character - the duel does not take place. Cancel the effects of the duel.

Yeah, I got to negate your duel, but at a cost for me. At least will make you think more when choosing your targets. 

I’m gonna look for them and post them here (again)

Edited by Tabris2k

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I’m not so good at balancing so bear with me, and the reason I’m not assigning some cards to clans (help me here if you wish). Oh, and the fact that duels don’t have an action window is the reason that all of them are Interrupts or Reaction. 

-Duelist Trainer
Dynasty Character - 2 Fate - 2/1/1
Reaction: After honor dials are revealed during a duel - raise or lower your bid by 1. 

-Kakita Yojimbo (Crane clan)
Conflict character- 3 Fate -3/3/2
Influence (2?)
Interrupt: When one of your characters is challenged to a duel - Put this character into play. He becomes the challenged character instead.

-Dishonor on your cow (name in progress)
Neutral event - 0 cost 
Interrupt: When one of your characters is challenged to a duel - Dishonor that character. The duel does not initiate. Cancel the effects of the duel. 

-Niten daisho (Dragon)
Attachment - ? Fate
Influence 2
+2 MIL
Reaction: After a duel initiates, but before setting up the honor bid - play this attachment on a character participating in the duel. (Not sure on this one, maybe after setting up the bid but before revealing will be better)

-False Rumor
Basically the same as the above, but gives -2 POL (to attach to opponent’s character)

Rigged Duel (Scorpion)
Event - 1 Fate
Influence 1
Interrupt: After losing a duel - give 2 honor to your opponent. Cancel the effects of the duel. 

Ancestral Dojo
Holding - +1
Reaction: After losing a duel - Honor a character you control. 

Public place at the sunset
Holding - +1
Reaction: After losing a duel, sacrifice this holding - Dishonor the challenging character. 


Maybe the wording is not entirely right, but my point is making some cards that make your opponent think twice before challenging you a duel, and making the bidding mechanic actually a risky bid, and not as predictable as it is now. Also, cards that gives you an advantage even when you lose a duel. I think that dueling desperately needs a rework, but instead of make it changing the rules, just through cards that interact with the Duel Timing sequence.

Edited by Tabris2k

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1 hour ago, agarrett said:

A card that allows redirection of the duel. I think this is highly likely, it's practically the role of a yojimbo. 

I'd be very surprised if a conflict character that said something like "Reaction: After your character is challenged to a duel - put this character into play from your hand. this character is now the target of the challenge." isn't printed.

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2 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I'd be very surprised if a conflict character that said something like "Reaction: After your character is challenged to a duel - put this character into play from your hand. this character is now the target of the challenge." isn't printed.

I wouldn't be surprised by this at all, Yogo Kikuyo in Disciples of the Void does a very similar effect, accept it outright cancels the spell event.

Edited by Silverfox13

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4 hours ago, agarrett said:

  Just curious here - Silverfox13 suggested 3 cards. Do you think none of them will happen, or just the last? Specifically:

  - A card that switches the duel stat. As written, probably not - but I could see a more restricted one, like if your courtier is targeted by a military duel, switch the stat to political (or the other way around if a bushi is challenged as a separate card.)

  - A card that allows redirection of the duel. I think this is highly likely, it's practically the role of a yojimbo. 

  - A Kharmic Strike equivalent. This one, I agree, is unlikely as written, discarding both targets. A post-duel reaction, however, that mitigates a duel, or in some way penalizes the winner, I can see (of course, I'm so incredibly vague in my description there that I'll easily be able to claim vindication in future sets ;))

My apologies for not posting a more clear response; I was at work. 

1) A suggestion that switches the duel stat - not gonna happen. Though I’d give this suggestion a possibility of 5% given some of the UNbalanced cards being released by FFG (Magistrates come to mind..) in the last 6 pack release. 

2) A card that allows for some sort of REdirection of a duel is likely, I fully confess this. The possibility of this type of card coming out in the ‘near future’ I would say 25% likely. In 2+ years? Yes, more than likely as Dueling will once again become a crutch for some of the designers. (I’ll post more on this thought in the coming months) 

3) A ‘KS’ type of card, once again, I believe is unlikely to come out, but hey, here is Policy Debate soooooo.... ? So give the possibility of a similar card to be around 10%???(I do remember similar cards in the days of L5R, but I could be wrong) 

So I guess I should change never will happen and replace with ‘these possibilities’ or something? I don’t know. ?

My main gripe is that dueling and the dueling mechanism is just not well thought out. And with each release I’m fearing a hidden jewel of crafted stupidity to be released. :shrug: Though I do admit the Crane dueling attachment is sublime and not over the top, which would preclude me from being a harsher critic. 

I don’t know how I would have approached it, but whatever. Several of us have very negative memories of what Dueling did to the L5R, something we wouldn’t want forced onto our worst enemy. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I'd be very surprised if a conflict character that said something like "Reaction: After your character is challenged to a duel - put this character into play from your hand. this character is now the target of the challenge." isn't printed.

How about "Chosen Champion"

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16 hours ago, LordBlunt said:

My apologies for not posting a more clear response; I was at work. 

1) A suggestion that switches the duel stat - not gonna happen. Though I’d give this suggestion a possibility of 5% given some of the UNbalanced cards being released by FFG (Magistrates come to mind..) in the last 6 pack release. 

2) A card that allows for some sort of REdirection of a duel is likely, I fully confess this. The possibility of this type of card coming out in the ‘near future’ I would say 25% likely. In 2+ years? Yes, more than likely as Dueling will once again become a crutch for some of the designers. (I’ll post more on this thought in the coming months) 

3) A ‘KS’ type of card, once again, I believe is unlikely to come out, but hey, here is Policy Debate soooooo.... ? So give the possibility of a similar card to be around 10%???(I do remember similar cards in the days of L5R, but I could be wrong) 

So I guess I should change never will happen and replace with ‘these possibilities’ or something? I don’t know. ?

My main gripe is that dueling and the dueling mechanism is just not well thought out. And with each release I’m fearing a hidden jewel of crafted stupidity to be released. :shrug: Though I do admit the Crane dueling attachment is sublime and not over the top, which would preclude me from being a harsher critic. 

I don’t know how I would have approached it, but whatever. Several of us have very negative memories of what Dueling did to the L5R, something we wouldn’t want forced onto our worst enemy. 

 

How do you come up with your probability chances? Do you work for FFG or have some insight the rest of us don't have?

I like dueling. It hasn't ruined any of my games. 

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