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Posted (edited)

Definitely 3, though if you remove some of those results with Tough Luck, it seems like they shouldn't count.

Let's look at Accuracy from the rules reference:

"The attacker’s total Accuracy is determined by adding all numbers rolled on dice, and applying any Accuracy modifiers provided by abilities"

Are you saying that if you remove the results on a die with a number on it, the number still counts for accuracy?  According to the logic above, it says add up numbers on rolled dice.  So it is impossible to reduce a player's accuracy with Tough Luck?

This seems a little ridiculous.

Edited by DTDanix

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You remove the accuracy result as well as other dice symbols with Tough Luck. (I'm sure it has been discussed as one application of Tough Luck before on this forum, and I don't think anyone has suggested it doesn't remove accuracy results. )

According to the wording of Tough Luck though, you are not removing the die itself though, so whatever the reroll produced counts towards what "you rolled" and not what you end up in the attack/defense pool. But I have said that before, so ask the confirmation from Todd.

 

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Posted (edited)

You're being contradictory here.

Why would you remove the accuracy?

"The attacker’s total Accuracy is determined by adding all numbers rolled on dice, and applying any Accuracy modifiers provided by abilities"

According to you, this doesn't have anything to do with the attack/defense pool results since it is referring to rolled dice.  It is strictly what is on the dice you rolled, regardless of whether their results have been removed.

That's the argument you're using for the removed blank still giving you +1 dodge.

You can't have it both ways (blank still counts, but accuracy doesn't).

Edited by DTDanix

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

Why would you remove the accuracy?

That's the argument you're using for the removed blank still giving you +1 dodge.

You can't have it both ways (blank still counts, but accuracy doesn't).

Accuracy is a die result as far as I know.

RRG, Ranged Attacks said:

· While performing a ranged attack, the attacker requires
  Accuracy equal to or greater than the number of spaces away
  from the target. If he does not have enough Accuracy results,
  the attack misses.

You argue that "blank" is a result that can be added and removed, but doesn't affect Lucky, which looks at the rolled die, not what's in the attack/defense results.

Lucky: "if you roll a blank result". Nothing about the attack/defense pool. Only looks at the die face rolled. (Rerolls ignore previous die face although it's not in the rules. Like I said, the ruling for Lucky hasn't surfaced as far as I know. I haven't Googled for it though.)

Heightened Reflexes: "... remove its results from the defense results." Only manipulating the defense pool, even if you could add a "blank" result to the pool and remove "blank" (nothing) which I don't think is possible.
Tough Luck: ".. remove that die's result from the results." Only manipulating the attack/defense pool - removes both "icons and accuracy" results (see RRG, Attacks, step 4).

Element of Surprise: ".. remove 1 die from its defense pool." Removing a die so that it isn't rolled.

Are there more?

(I'll try asking Todd directly to resolve this.)

Edited by a1bert

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Blank is a result on a die too, just like accuracy.  R2's card even refers to it as a blank result.  You can remove a blank result just like you remove any other result because it is a result on a die.

The rules barely say anything about "attack/defense pool", so it is kind of pointless to bring that up.

Accuracy looks at rolled dice according to the RRG, just like Lucky.
"The attacker’s total Accuracy is determined by adding all numbers rolled on dice, and applying any Accuracy modifiers provided by abilities"

The distinction you're making between blank results and accuracy results is weird.  Either "rolled result" is the same for blanks and accuracy or it isn't.

I obviously don't think that accuracy results should persist after they've been removed, because that would be dumb.  I think it is similarly dumb if blank results persist after they have been removed.

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On ‎10‎.‎04‎.‎2018 at 6:32 PM, Fightwookies said:

Heightened Reflexes only removes the results, not the dice itself. So, no results from the die will apply directly to the defense results. It seems like the the dice was still rolled? 

"Blank" is a result. Heightened Reflexes removes that result.

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Lucky's timing is unspecified, and it resolves during the "apply modifiers" step. At this time is checks for if you "rolled" a blank result. Regardless of the current defense results, if (after rerolls) one of R2-D2's defense dice showed a blank side, the dodge is applied. Anything that happens to the defense results between rolling and adding the dodge is irrelevant.
 
Quote from: Pasi 'a1bert' Ojala on 2018-04-16, 01:40:50
Q: Are the accuracy numbers on the dice attack results? i.e. are they removed from the attack pool with Heightened Reflexes or Tough Luck?
 
Yes. Accuracy results are attack results. If they are printed on a die, they are dice results (native to that die).
 
Quote from: Pasi 'a1bert' Ojala on 2018-04-16, 01:40:50
Q: The RRG nor LtP do not really say what rerolling a die means, but I think that if you reroll a die, the old results are ignored, and the new results are added to the attack/defense pool. It is like the original roll never happened (except as a trigger for the reroll). Is this a correct interpretation?
 
Yes. For the purposes of effects, dice are not considered fully rolled until after all rerolls are performed. Rerolls fully replace any previous rolls of that die.
 
Quote from: Pasi 'a1bert' Ojala on 2018-04-16, 01:40:50
Q: Can you remove a "blank" die result?" Is the blank side of the white die a "blank" that can be removed with Heightened Reflexes?
 
Yes, you can remove a blank die result.  When you remove a die's results, that die's results become "nothing." (Note that this does not cause Lucky to fail, as the die still satisfies the condition of "having rolled" a blank result.)
 
Quote from: Pasi 'a1bert' Ojala on 2018-04-16, 01:40:50
Is there a difference between "dice results" and attack/defense results? When are "the results" referring to dice and when to attack/defense pool? (Element of Surprise, Heightened Reflexes, Tough Luck).
 

Yes, dice results are a subset of attack/defense results that are contributed by physical die faces. Unless specified, "results" refers to the total attack results from all sources.

Todd Michlitsch
Board Game Developer

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Posted (edited)

So you're saying Tough Luck works, but Heightened Reflexes doesn't because one affects results and the other affects defense results?

Or I guess not because you're saying the blank result still exists for the purposes of "rolled"

Edited by DTDanix

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Todd is confirming that what you rolled (after rerolls) is what you rolled.

If R2-D2 rolled defense dice, you can change what R2-D2 rolled by causing a reroll, but not by manipulating the attack/defense results.

You can read what else Todd confirmed from his response.

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, a1bert said:

Todd is confirming that what you rolled (after rerolls) is what you rolled.

If R2-D2 rolled defense dice, you can change what R2-D2 rolled by causing a reroll, but not by manipulating the attack/defense results.

You can read what else Todd confirmed from his response.

 

Thanks Pasi. Did I understand correctly? Removing R2 defense die from the pool is equivalent to a blank result and he can activate Lucky?

Edited by Golan Trevize

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Posted (edited)

No and yes.

No: Removing R2's defense die from the pool is IN NO WAY equivalent to a blank result. Instead: You rolled a blank. Heightened Reflexes removes that blank result. You still count as having rolled that blank result in the first place and Lucky triggers on "if you ROLL a blank result", therefore ...

Yes: ... Lucky is activated and R2 gets a dodge.

Edited by DerBaer

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Golan Trevize said:

Did I understand correctly? Removing R2 defense die from the pool is equivalent to a blank result and he can activate Lucky?

"if you roll" means "if you roll". If you did not roll, you did not roll, and "if you roll blank" is not true. (Element of Surprise removes the die before it is rolled.)

if (after rerolls) one of R2-D2's defense dice showed a blank side, the dodge is applied.

Edited by a1bert

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6 minutes ago, a1bert said:

"if you roll" means "if you roll". If you did not roll, you did not roll, and "if you roll blank" is not true. (Element of Surprise removes the die before it is rolled.)

Ok I got it now. Thanks for clarifying!

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Posted (edited)

"Yes, you can remove a blank die result.  When you remove a die's results, that die's results become "nothing." (Note that this does not cause Lucky to fail, as the die still satisfies the condition of "having rolled" a blank result.)"

Does this mean that heightened reflexes and tough luck don't remove accuracy results??

Blank result: is a result
accuracy: is a result 

Lucky: Checks what was rolled, "If you roll a blank result"
Accuracy: Checks what was rolled, "adding all numbers rolled on dice"

Tough Luck and Heightened Reflexes: Remove results, but the dice still satisfies the condition of "having rolled" either a blank result or whatever accuracy result.

If tough luck and Heightened reflexes remove the accuracy results, someone please explain the difference between lucky checking rolled results and accuracy checking rolled results.

Edit: If tough luck doesn't remove accuracy, this has huge implications for most worlds lists.

Edited by brettpkelly

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Posted (edited)

It does remove accuracy and there are no doubts about it. Accuracy is a result, because it's clearly stated in step 4. (afair Todd also mentioned it somewhere).

Where did you get "adding all number rolled on dice" during Accuracy Check?

 

Step 6 just states, that "the total Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than this number, the attack is a miss"

 

Which means acc check is based on total accuracy after step 4 not any rolled results, (after TL and HR)

Edited by Szycha

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19 minutes ago, Szycha said:

It does remove accuracy and there are no doubts about it. Accuracy is a result, because it's clearly stated in step 4. (afair Todd also mentioned it somewhere).

Where did you get "adding all number rolled on dice" during Accuracy Check?

 

Step 6 just states, that "the total Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than this number, the attack is a miss"

 

Which means acc check is based on total accuracy after step 4 not any rolled results, (after TL and HR)

"Adding all numbers rolled on dice" is straight out of the RRG for accuracy. Based on Todd's ruling it seems you can remove them with TL or HR, but that ruling doesn't seem consistent with the ruling on Lucky. "Numbers rolled" seems like the same wording as "if you rolled a blank result".

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

someone please explain the difference between lucky checking rolled results and accuracy checking rolled results.

The Check Accuracy step checks total accuracy, and while some other parts of the RRG might be loose in its wording (referring to accuracy rolled), it is more or clear from the rest of the RRG that the total accuracy consists of the sum of all accuracy results that were added to the attack pool, including both positive and negative.

Attribute Tests said:

· Each surge rolled is a success.

Does this mean that negative surges do not matter for attribute tests? Why are missions using negative surges if they don't matter?

I would argue that Lucky is an ability on a card and not a generic description.

Edited by a1bert

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1 hour ago, a1bert said:

The Check Accuracy step checks total accuracy, and while some other parts of the RRG might be loose in its wording (referring to accuracy rolled), it is more or clear from the rest of the RRG that the total accuracy consists of the sum of all accuracy results that were added to the attack pool, including both positive and negative.

Does this mean that negative surges do not matter for attribute tests? Why are missions using negative surges if they don't matter?

I would argue that Lucky is an ability on a card and not a generic description.

The problem is a lack of consistency. If there are two different types of results (rolled vs. pooled), it's completely fair to question other abilities that refer to "rolled results". 

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So to clarify, what would this mean for Tress when she releases? Her krayt dragon fury says "while attacking x equals the number of surges ROLLED." So if an opponent tough lucks a die she rerolls while attacking, the surge(s) from the rerolled die still count towards the x because they were rolled correct? 

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Yes. Tough Luck does not affect the number of surges that were rolled. Tough Luck only removes the results of the die from the attack/defense results.

 

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