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"While defending, if you roll a blank result, add +1X to the defense results"

"If you roll a blank result" - does this mean that before rerolls and before modifiers are done (before heightened reflex could kick in) you gain that X result regardless if your defense dice gets rerolled / removed? Or do you only get to add the X result during your "defender modifies" step?

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If the defense die gets removed, you didn't roll a blank result because you didn't roll a defense die.

As for the reroll, they are not actually defined in the rules. We have assumed that when you reroll, the results of the original roll is considered to not have existed. I am pretty sure Todd has ruled Lucky like this sometime last year, but I have not seen the actual ruling e-mail. (Try google and see if you get Lucky.)

I.e. you consider the dice results only after rerolls (and then the dice results get added to the attack/defense results). This isn't specified in the rules, but you certainly don't get symbols from both the original and the reroll added to the attack/defense pool.

Edited by a1bert

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IMO it clearly takes place during apply modifiers step, so there is no problem with original die result, because it no longer exists during step 4 - where it is applied. 

Edited by Szycha

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Posted (edited)

 

On 2/11/2018 at 4:06 PM, a1bert said:

If the defense die gets removed, you didn't roll a blank result because you didn't roll a defense die.

I submitted a rules question on this a few days ago because I’m not sure about this. 

Heightened Reflexes only removes the results, not the dice itself. So, no results from the die will apply directly to the defense results. It seems like the the dice was still rolled? 

Edited by Fightwookies

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Lucky literally refers to a rolled result. If you don't roll a defense die at all, you didn't roll a result. I don't see how it can be interpreted differently unless errata'ed.

Heightened Reflexes removes the results (during step 4, attacker) which the chosen die added to the pool (at the end of the reroll step). If the die added any symbols, you did not roll a blank result. If you did roll a blank result, Lucky applies whether Hightened Reflexes is played or not (it would remove no symbols from the pool, and Lucky would be resolved after it).

Interesting to see what the current interpretation from Todd is.

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R2's ability doesn't say "rolled" it says "if you roll".  This is present tense and not past tense.  So it sounds like it would trigger immediately after dice are locked in after rerolls.  Except it is an ability that adds a modifier so I would assume it actually happens during the defenders turn of the add modifiers step.  The game doesn't have a memory to keep track of past states like that for example with 4 player free for all and a self destructing probe droid or wookies that have more damage than their default health when adrenaline wears off in a 4 player game as well.  So I argue that lucky can only look at the current game state.

I also argue that blank is a result and not a null set of results.  Therefore tough luck and heightened reflexes both remove the blank from the results because R2's card refers to a blank as a result and not a lack of symbols as a trigger to lucky.

So to me this is important to clarify because we should know the difference between a null/empty set of results and a blank result.  And we need to know how abilities like lucky look at the game state.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, a1bert said:

Lucky literally refers to a rolled result. If you don't roll a defense die at all, you didn't roll a result. I don't see how it can be interpreted differently unless errata'ed.

Heightened Reflexes removes the results (during step 4, attacker) which the chosen die added to the pool (at the end of the reroll step). If the die added any symbols, you did not roll a blank result. If you did roll a blank result, Lucky applies whether Hightened Reflexes is played or not (it would remove no symbols from the pool, and Lucky would be resolved after it).

Interesting to see what the current interpretation from Todd is.

I see 3 different options:

(1) According to Lucky “roll” refers only to dice results that exist at the time of applying defender modifiers (step 4) so tough luck or heightened reflexes remove the blank result making it as if it's never been rolled and Lucky is not triggered. I think this is how most people have interpreted it (doesn't make it right). 

(2) According to Lucky “roll” refers to a result that exists only after rerolls but that remains relevant all the way to the defender stage of step 4 and Lucky is triggered.

(3) According to Lucky “roll” refers to a result that has occurred at any point during the attack by virtue of a defense dice. In this instance if R2 rolls a blank against a figure with Raider even if R2 proceeds to roll an evade the fact that he rolled a blank "while attacking" Lucky still triggers (even if heightened reflexes or tough luck is played to remove the evade).  

In my opinion (2) is the most convoluted of the three. It is akin to saying I rolled these dice, but they technically aren't rolled because they were rerolled... but you can't stop Lucky with heightened reflexes because I actually did roll that result.

I think (1) is the most intuitive. People tend to understand what you "rolled" is what endures to step 7

(3) is probably the most logically consistent based on the wording of the card. If we are going to argue that (2) is right we'd have to argue that there is something different about rerolls that make it so the prior result actually never happened and I'm not sure we can make that assumption unless there is some wording in the rules reference or prior ruling making that clear. Furthermore, in (3) if R2 rolls a blank and then rerolls into an evade that evade result is applied to defense results (unless canceled) and the player dodges as well.  

 

All translates into I'm not attacking R2 anymore because I have no idea how it works.

Edited by seef1033

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20 minutes ago, Matsu Robun said:

R2's ability doesn't say "rolled" it says "if you roll".  This is present tense and not past tense.  So it sounds like it would trigger immediately after dice are locked in after rerolls.  Except it is an ability that adds a modifier so I would assume it actually happens during the defenders turn of the add modifiers step.  The game doesn't have a memory to keep track of past states like that for example with 4 player free for all and a self destructing probe droid or wookies that have more damage than their default health when adrenaline wears off in a 4 player game as well.  So I argue that lucky can only look at the current game state.

I also argue that blank is a result and not a null set of results.  Therefore tough luck and heightened reflexes both remove the blank from the results because R2's card refers to a blank as a result and not a lack of symbols as a trigger to lucky.

So to me this is important to clarify because we should know the difference between a null/empty set of results and a blank result.  And we need to know how abilities like lucky look at the game state.

I think you are right that a "blank" result is a positive result vs null result 

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Posted (edited)

Heightened Reflexes removes symbols from the attack/defense pool, it doesn't affect the dice rolls. The dice were rolled (possibly with rerolls), the dice have results which were added to the pool. If the blank face was rolled, it doesn't add anything and I expect you can't remove "nothing" from the pool. Even if you remove nothing from the pool, it doesn't change what was rolled (after rerolls I advocate).

I have talked with Todd about the interaction between Heightened Reflexes and Lucky before, but have not seen any public ruling. The question is not about the wording of Lucky alone - you need to take into account what rerolls actually do. (There aren't definitions/rules for rerolls in the RRG.)

(Checking my correspondence it looks like the previous rulings probably were that you only consider the dice after rerolls and that not rolling a defense die doesn't trigger Lucky. But like I said, I have not seen the rulings in public circulation.)

Edited by a1bert

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But heightened reflexes isn't removing symbols specifically, it's targeting a die and removing all that die's results from the defense results.  And a blank is a result as defined by the text on R2's card saying "if you roll a blank result" not if you roll no symbols or if you roll no results.  

R2-D2.png

Heightened Reflexes.png

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Matsu Robun said:

But heightened reflexes isn't removing symbols specifically, it's targeting a die and removing all that die's results from the defense results.  And a blank is a result as defined by the text on R2's card saying "if you roll a blank result" not if you roll no symbols or if you roll no results.  

R2-D2.png

Heightened Reflexes.png

I lean towards where he’s going with this. Both cards expressly work with “results”. One expressly calls “blank” a “result” and the other expressly says to “remove (1 defense die’s) results from the defense results. 

Blank either has to be a result for both cards or not a result for both cards, doesn’t it? Or something needs to be tightened up in the wording. 

But IF a blank for R2 somehow overrides heightened reflexes (for some reason - whether there is really an existing rule OR else a final decision/ruling that Just states that it is the way it will be regardless) - that means R2 is actually better off rolling a blank result on the white die because it’s immune to being stripped (for some reason) by heightened reflexes and tough luck whereas a true dodge rolled would be eliminated by those cards (assuming the necessary conditions of course). And that sounds like it’s not the way the ability is supposed to work - meaning - I don’t think Lucky should make a blank stronger than a dodge but was intended to make a blank equal to a dodge for all intents and purposes. 

Edited by Masterchiefspiff

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I say how I see it. (And apparently the tech editor Clipper and Todd.)

"roll a result" is different than manipulating the attack/defense results.

Sure, blank wasn't intended to be stronger than dodge when R2-D2 was coined, but when you add new abilities (Heightened Reflexes from wave 8, R2-D2 from wave 2) you get new interactions. But in skirmish you have to go with the rules as written and not as intended.

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Posted (edited)

There's something I'm missing here. Lucky and HR are both abilities "while attacking/defending" that modify die results. Hence they can only be used at step 4 "apply modifier". The attacker-defender priority makes HR apply before Lucky. Now if the attacher chooses the white die and removes its "blank result" from defence results (I'm following HR as written) then Lucky has no blank result on which it applies.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Golan Trevize said:

There's something I'm missing here. Lucky and HR are both abilities "while attacking/defending" that modify die results.

Lucky and Heightened Reflexes modify the symbols/accuracy in the attack/defense pool according to "die results" (what you rolled, the symbols on the die face), they don't manipulate the "die results" themselves (like all "while attacking/defending" abilities that add or remove symbols or accuracy). But adding or removing symbols or accuracy in the pool does not change what you rolled.

Edited by a1bert

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I really want to understand this, but none of the arguments make sense. The only thing that makes sense to me here as that the language/terms need to be cleaned up because of this interaction.

So you’re saying tough luck and heightened reflexes do not remove a blank “result” from the defense results pool? That somehow, the undefined term “results” (please show me where “results” is defined as a term) doesn’t/can’t include a “blank” “result”. But yet blank is a face on the dice and is a result. How is blank not a symbol or a result - when even R2 references blank as a result? 

Cards as written call blank a result...thanks R2...

It could be cleaned up by changing the wording on heightened reflexes etc to “remove that die from the appropriate pool”. 

Why doesn’t that card say that instead of what seems more clunky in “remove its  results from the defense results”? Or specifying “symbols and accuracy” from the defense results? 

This really just seems like an ongoing circle of English breaking down in the way the cards are written and terms (“results”) aren’t defined. (Again unless they are clearly somewhere).

I honestly don’t care where it lands - but it needs an official explanation/Ruling that is publicly available. The last thing we need is someone arguing over this in a game at a tourney because one guy did some reading and another didn’t and there wasn’t an official answer to go to (like OTL and Collateral Damage - thank you FAQ!)

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There is no blank symbol which you could add to the attack/defense pool, so "blank result on a die" must mean the blank side of the die and not a symbol.

So, if someone sent the question in, there will be an "official" answer at some point. I know it has been asked before and I'm pretty sure an answer was given.

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This is the exact kind of thing I think of when I see people complain about rules lawyering.

The ability is pretty clearly supposed to be there's an extra dodge on R2's white die.  Everything else should behave the same.

They worded it "if you roll a blank" because almost any other way to phrase it sounds bad.  Just because there's no symbol for "blank", doesn't mean it doesn't behave like everything else. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Get it from Todd, I can't quote private conversations.

See Cheat to Win command card and Single-Minded class card to see the way to modify dice (as opposed to manipulating the attack/defense pool).

 

 

Edited by a1bert

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Posted (edited)

swi54_card_tress-hacnua.png

The announcement of Tress in the Tyrants of Lothal expansion further clarifies to me that there is a difference between rolled results and results that get added to the defense results. This appears to be an example of keeping future design space open by limiting the wording on Tough Luck/Heightened reflexes to only remove the results from the defense results, while not removing the dice. Still hoping for a clarification soon

Edited by Fightwookies

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Posted (edited)

Still though, if you remove a result from the defense results, it should be gone, whether it is on a die or not.

When Heightened Reflexes removes your blank result from the results, then R2's Lucky ability shouldn't be able to see that blank result and use it.

In my opinion, "rolled" should mean "results in the pool that came from dice".  That seems to be the most sensible way to do it.  Otherwise you have abilities using results that aren't in the attack/defense pool, which is just weird.

Edited by DTDanix

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If abilities that look at die faces would manipulate attack/defense results pool instead, how would you keep track of which results in the pool came from dice and which from other abilities? There are abilities that have explicit timing and add symbols before step 4.

Can the attacker decide which surges get annihilated by negative surges and cancelled by evades?

I think that would be much more complicated, rules-lawyery, and confusing than looking at the die faces.

 

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You look at the dice that haven't had their results removed?  People do this all the time when calculating damage and it makes much more sense than "that die's results were removed, but we're still using them anyways for this other ability."

Depending on when you determine "X" in Tress's card (like doing it immediately after rolling/rerolls), you can avoid any weirdness with evades.  I hope they don't print cards with abilities that do stuff based on removed dice results.

 

 

 

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