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Velvetelvis

Meta went fast ! Or...farewell kylo ren...you were nearly a thing.

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6 hours ago, All Shields Forward said:

Are you just on this thread to defend PWT?

What if I am? 

I see a lot of knee-jerk comments from frustrated players regarding turrets, both PWT and TLT upgrades. Some of the suggestions would make these ships or upgrades unplayable. They aren't interested in game balance. They want (insert here) gone. They won't say that exactly but that's the gist of their b******g.

Back in the heyday of Soontir Fel, when getting him in arc was near impossible, I never complained. He was a part of the game that you had to deal with. Since you couldn't dogfight him one on one, you learned to block him.  

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending PWT because I use them. I rarely do.  I'm here to point out that some of these posts intended for game balance are thinly disguised calls for a basic ban on them. 

There have been a couple of intelligently thought out and presented changes to PWT that don't neuter the ship. But those have been few and far between. 

 

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3 hours ago, hawk32 said:

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

It's been proposed that all PWTs should have a Mobile Firing Arc like the Lancer. The Lancer has a turret that can shoot outside of its firing arc in additio.n to forward facing primary weapons. Is has also been recommended that a reduction in the red dice for a PWT that fires outside of its primary arc. How many times have you seen the generic YT-1300 with a two dice primary used? Or Dash without a Mangler or HLC upgrade. Other threads have mentioned how useless a two attack is and yet some players want to impose this on out of arc shots for PWTs.

The Lancer also has an upgrade that gives it a free move to the Mobile Firing Arc if it does a 3-5 speed maneuver. Essentially a free action. Not every PWT has the dial that the Lancer does hence the request for a free action mechanic that would allow it to move its firing arc or perform another action. 

Frustrated players basically want the PWT gone. They mask that intention by claiming game balance. Don't get wrong. I'm not a big fan of a 13-16 health, fat turret making life hard for my squaddies. To me X-wing is a GAME. A good one. No, I'm not happy about some of the mechanics, card wording etc but it's a game! I win some, lose more but have fun regardless. We know what the rules are. Just play the game and enjoy the benefits. Meeting new people, making new friends and having fun.

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The problem isn't the game itself but the point system. The difference between 1 and 2 points is what makes a card or ship see play or dust on your shelf. 

If you took the game and made it 200 points a match but essentially doubled the cost of everything, i.e Rookie T65 X wings became 46 points for example, (or 39 so you could field 5 with Integrated) you would have a greater field of variance. 

Just think about that for a second. It's still the same great game but there would actually be a finer balance between 1 and 2 point upgrades. I mean, Dengar crew, which is active ALL the time, would be 6 points, which is fair. K4 Security Droid could then be 4 points. (instead of 3). They have the same effect, providing re-rolls, but K4 needs you to perform a green move, which in my opinion, should therefore denote it a cheaper cost. However, in our current game state, making it 1 or 2 points would be a huge boon and make it compete with other great cards at that level or just make other cards redundant. 

I've been thinking this for a while and the more I play, the more it just makes sense. 

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On 2018-02-10 at 7:56 PM, Velvetelvis said:

Man, in 1 month kylo and 2 boats went from looking really strong, but fell like a stone from a bridge off the competitive map.

 

On one hand it's interesting seeing things get countered quickly. But on the other. ...well....the "looking for new list blues" is a drag.

 

Point is..the world is going by fast these days. 

Kylo and his boat squaddies are probably off drinking tea with the pilots form G4H, which not even got a chance to lift off, so fast was the release pace last year :(

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I think Kylo will have his day, but the Meta doesn't quite suit him right now. Kylo is very much a passive ship. He has a passive ability and holds a lot of points for not much offense. He can be very defensive with his movement ability and native 6 hitpoints behind 3 agility. You basically got to kill more points than Kylo is worth with the rest of your list and maybe Kylo helping with a couple of shots. Then you play the run game with Kylo and go to time. If you don't play like that, very passively, you won't have success with him. Unfortunately for Kylo, the one big meta danger is Fenn/Ghost which is not a good match. The Ghost holds way more points than Kylo and it forces Kylo to actively engage in the match. One wrong move and you eat a 5-dice primary and its over.

I think people haven't given Blackout enough attention. He is the true hunter in the Silencer. Of course he has a middling pilot skill, but he's so dang maneuverable with Advanced and PTL, that sometimes that doesn't matter. He punches above his 3 attack dice especially when his ability procs. Of course, the **** Ghost doesn't care. I've had some good success with him but probably won't bring him to a tourney anytime soon. There is just so many maneuver options that over the course of 5 or 6 games, it can become a headache of a ship to pilot.

Edited by Jo Jo

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I know FFG said they would never do card packs... but a card pack of titles with fixes / upgrades for the ships like the X-Wing etc. Is all it would take to make the old waves relevant again, depending on what those titles do of course. This wouldn't solve everything but it would definitely help bring those ships off the shelf and onto the mat competitively. I would like to see old unique titles updated as well like Slave 1 and Millennium Falcon so they do more like current titles do.

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11 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I think people haven't given Blackout enough attention. He is the true hunter in the Silencer. 

I agree - sry Kylo, you got the name but that test pilot stole your show

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31 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I think people haven't given Blackout enough attention. He is the true hunter in the Silencer.

he is sooooooo fun!

17 minutes ago, flooze said:

I agree - sry Kylo, you got the name but that test pilot stole your show

I'm in with that too.

Yeah, but the ship --no matter the pilot-- cannot compete with the ease of others in the meta. The ship is expensive, uber-maneuverable, hits average for a ship of less cost, only has dice for protection (no evade) which we all know is flighty at best.

The ship is meta unworthy save a fantastic pilot flying her that can cause actual dice miracles. The reason for her inability to take down the meta powers? This ship has NO: Turret (TLT, lets be obvious), Regen, Evade, Reinforce, missile slot, or at least a 4 die primary.

She's absolutely fun.

She's absolutely dead.

 

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31 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

he is sooooooo fun!

I'm in with that too.

Yeah, but the ship --no matter the pilot-- cannot compete with the ease of others in the meta. The ship is expensive, uber-maneuverable, hits average for a ship of less cost, only has dice for protection (no evade) which we all know is flighty at best.

The ship is meta unworthy save a fantastic pilot flying her that can cause actual dice miracles. The reason for her inability to take down the meta powers? This ship has NO: Turret (TLT, lets be obvious), Regen, Evade, Reinforce, missile slot, or at least a 4 die primary.

She's absolutely fun.

She's absolutely dead.

 

This is my feeling as well.  It would have been a good ship three years ago, but it's too fragile and too limp wristed for its cost for 2018.

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On 2/11/2018 at 9:25 AM, beardxofxdeath said:

But in a game which should be about outmaneuver your enemy, a shot out of arc should be penalized. The advantage is that you can shoot at all.

 

I would add a line in the Core Rules in the chapter about the firing arc: "When a ship is able to shoot (with equipped turret or a PWT) at enemies that are not inside their firing arc, the defender rolls one additional defense die."

I think this would enough of a nerf for Turrets and PWT to make them less powerful. On the other side its only TLT thats that broken. Maybe finally a nerf to TLT?

IMO, the TLT isn't broken. It becomes a PITA on the Ghost with Phantom docked.

How often do you see Dash without a canon upgrade or the generic YT-1300 on the board? Both with a 2 dice primary? Now I've flown Dash with a HLC but without the Outrider title. Think B25-H from WW II. Fun but not the best use of points. So imagine Fel, out of arc, range three autothrusters and your suggested fix. Focus,focus, evade, three green dice normally, plus one for range and another per the fix. 

I get that PWTs and TLTs can make some builds non-competitive even in casual games. I think that a lot of the complaints come from players that miss the old days when Soontir Fel was The Pilot, throwing his interceptor around the table. Getting him in arc was next to impossible when flown by a competent player. I would like nothing more than to field the top three T-65 X-wings and have them be competitive in a casual game. That ain't gonna happen. 

Speaking strictly from the point of game balance, X-wing has some problems. You're never going to have a perfect rock-paper-scissors balance.

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My milder PWT "nerf" is to not give them a range 1 bonus attack die outside of primary arc. This gives them a harder time pushing damage through if they just try to kite around a fur ball.

For the TLT, just make turret upgrades perform like primary weapons and grant bonus dice.  This will also make the other turrets a bit better at range 1 if in arc. Synced turrets all of a sudden become pretty good on Aggressors or Y-wings for that 4 dice attack at range 1 in arc. 

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31 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

My milder PWT "nerf" is to not give them a range 1 bonus attack die outside of primary arc. This gives them a harder time pushing damage through if they just try to kite around a fur ball.

For the TLT, just make turret upgrades perform like primary weapons and grant bonus dice.  This will also make the other turrets a bit better at range 1 if in arc. Synced turrets all of a sudden become pretty good on Aggressors or Y-wings for that 4 dice attack at range 1 in arc. 

I like this idea. Better then mine! :)

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3 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

My milder PWT "nerf" is to not give them a range 1 bonus attack die outside of primary arc. This gives them a harder time pushing damage through if they just try to kite around a fur ball.

For the TLT, just make turret upgrades perform like primary weapons and grant bonus dice.  This will also make the other turrets a bit better at range 1 if in arc. Synced turrets all of a sudden become pretty good on Aggressors or Y-wings for that 4 dice attack at range 1 in arc. 

Ya PWT don't need a hard need, just something to reword out flying them, simultaneously rewarding the PWT for keeping the target in arc.

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