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Can we just get Universal Half Points Already??

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Remember, my suggestion is for a half-points token.  If you're 9+ HP, and you get to half-HP, you get the token.  Regen is irrelevant, except for keeping you alive.  If you're carrying the token at the end of the game, your opponent gets the points.

(I do not want to derail, but this even allows some design space.  E.g., "Strategic Specialist, Crew: Action: Once per game, remove a half-points token from a friendly ship.")

This is easily the best half point proposal I've ever come across.

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I would be okay with this, even for small ships. But I'd rather have: 

"If a ship has 9 or more total hull and shields, if it had lost half or more of that total at the end of the game, the opposing player gains the larger half of the ship plus its upgrade's value during scoring. "

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25 minutes ago, Reiver said:

What about if you tracked 'damage' seperately to actual shields & hitpoints in tournament play?

Miranda might have regenerated 13 hitpoints and look unscathed, but in terms of points, she's a 0pt ship, because she exceeded her initial health value in damage suffered.

Then regen comes about keeping a ship on the table and contributing, instead of being about locking points away (And the temptation to simply run like a lunatic that keeps happening in such situations).

This rule would also come with an addentium that a 0pt ship still counts as a win if it's on the table; the Nashta Pup will be thankful for the clarification. :) 

No thanks.

As for Regen you just need to accept that it happens and may mess with your precious partial scoring options.  I'm sorry but if Corran is at 3/2 he's still chucking at full power and you haven't done a thing to slow him down so why should you be rewarded for that.  If you don't like Regen then KILL IT!  If you want to penalize Regen then you should do the same for anything that can generate Evade token like the Defender title.

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3 minutes ago, StevenO said:

No thanks.

As for Regen you just need to accept that it happens and may mess with your precious partial scoring options.  I'm sorry but if Corran is at 3/2 he's still chucking at full power and you haven't done a thing to slow him down so why should you be rewarded for that.  If you don't like Regen then KILL IT!  If you want to penalize Regen then you should do the same for anything that can generate Evade token like the Defender title.

Not the same. If a defender runs off for three rounds and comes back it doesnt have 3 evade tokens stacked

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The regen issue can be solved by just having half points be scored immediately as soon as the ship reaches half health and those points cannot be unscored. The token idea mentioned above is a good way to represent that but is not necessary. Just change the rules so that MOV is scored immediately instead of at the end of the game. 

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32 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I would be okay with this, even for small ships. But I'd rather have: 

"If a ship has 9 or more total hull and shields, if it had lost half or more of that total at the end of the game, the opposing player gains the larger half of the ship plus its upgrade's value during scoring. "

"If a ship has 9 or more total hull and shields except if the ship is a punisher, if it had lost half or more of that total at the end of the game, the opposing player gains the larger half of the ship plus its upgrade's value during scoring. "

B/c we don't need to nerf the worst ship in the game do we?

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3 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

"If a ship has 9 or more total hull and shields except if the ship is a punisher, if it had lost half or more of that total at the end of the game, the opposing player gains the larger half of the ship plus its upgrade's value during scoring. "

B/c we don't need to nerf the worst ship in the game do we?

Right, because it has so much farther to fall if it suddenly starts losing half-points? /s That's kind of the point I was trying to make in the OP with the Academy Pilots. 

It's hard to argue that a 1-agility turretless ship with no regen that can't even do a 4 straight is actually a points fortress anyway. If someone decides they want that Punisher to be dead, there's nothing the Punisher player can really do about it. As soon as something flies toward it it's going to be in range and it's going to take damage.

I agree that some ships will suffer under this new system, but there was no arbitrary points cap implemented with the large base ship half-points system to protect things like the Lambda or the Outer Rim Smuggler and the game still was better for the change. 

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9 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

there was no arbitrary points cap implemented with the large base ship half-points system to protect things like the Lambda or the Outer Rim Smuggler and the game still was better for the change. 

Well ... that depends on what you mean.  The game was better for the change compared to "nothing being done at all."

IMO, the game would have been far better if the thing that was actually broken was fixed ... the thing that prompted half-MoV for Large ships in the first place.

Compared to how good the game could have been if the problem were actually fixed, instead of being patched over with bubble-gum and duct tape, it's pretty accurate to argue that half-MoV was (comparably) bad for the game.

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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5 hours ago, viedit said:

My thought on regen is this - create a regen pool/card/token/whatever.  At the start of the game if you have the ability to regen add a number of shield tokens equal to your original shield value on the regen counter.  When you regenerate a shield, remove one token from the pool.  Poe gets 3, Miranda Gets 4, Norra gets 3, Corran gets 3, ect.  Done.  It's not infinite.  Miranda and Poe are still hard as **** to kill.  But at least you know there is an end to the madness.

I've been proposing this exact idea for quite awhile now.

In fact I started a thread proposing this change a little over a year ago

I don't know if it's because I used the word nerf or people were just much more accepting of regen back then, but man did I get blasted in a lot of the responses.

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5 hours ago, viedit said:

My thought on regen is this - create a regen pool/card/token/whatever.  At the start of the game if you have the ability to regen add a number of shield tokens equal to your original shield value on the regen counter.  When you regenerate a shield, remove one token from the pool.  Poe gets 3, Miranda Gets 4, Norra gets 3, Corran gets 3, ect.  Done.  It's not infinite.  Miranda and Poe are still hard as **** to kill.  But at least you know there is an end to the madness.

the that rewards certain ships while punishing others. gonk is pretty balanced right now, for example. i think certain upgrades and pilots just need to be re-priced. 

R2d2 is absolutely worth 6 or 7 points, and Miranda is definitely too cheap for what she does. squad poit adjustments would fix almost everything in this game

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Time limit is the only problem here. points were implimented to allow time limits by setting a victory condition prior to the resolution of the dogfight, so just get rid of points.  no more point fortresses. 

have specific victory conditions: last man standing as the default, but alternate formats like capture the flag, escort mission, etc. would be easy to add in and change the pace

one player wins in the allowed time or else its a draw.  shifts the strategy back to playing the game as opposed to min-maxing your scorable end of game points

there are worse things than shaking hands over a draw

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2 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

"If a ship has 9 or more total hull and shields except if the ship is a punisher... 

B/c we don't need to nerf the worst ship in the game do we?

The ARC would be another unfortunate collateral victim - but at least they have 2 regen droids to choose from. 

The Punisher is long overdue a fix - and that could be structured in such a way as to mitigate it falling into the 9hp category - give it Reinforce or regen of its own, allow it to take 1 Large ship mod (Deflectors or Counters in particular) in addition to its normal allowance. 

I'm certainly another advocate for the 9hp threshold - even without the "trigger-point" tracking token - keep it as simple as possible, no additional tokens. Miranda is the only "runaway and regen" ship I'm concerned about (she should be either 'Primary only' or 'in arc only', - Corran can be one-shot out of the game (I've done it once or twice myself) so bothers me less -  as for Poe, he's in an X-Wing(!), so unless they buff that chassis (though if they do, it should be offensive, not defensive) he's not overly obnoxious. 

- - - - - 

Heck - would it generate a lot of bad-will if FFG just experimented with such a change for a whole season? - everyone is privy to the tournament rules and should have their expectations set as to what it means regarding their list-building and tactics. If the outcome is favourable, cement it in. 

Edited by ABXY

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As a band-aid solution half points for 9 hull isn't bad, but points fortressing and stalling tactics are still going to be a problem. The only way to fix things is to force players to engage, which would most likely require an objectives system.

Edited by Squark

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7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Your intuition is correct.  This would be another kick in the teeth to ships that rely on AGI to stay alive.

The truth is, there's no good way to do half-MoV, but of all the bad options, the fairest is "9 HP+ total (SMall or Large) gets a half-points token when it first gets to half-HP or below."

You'd be better off tying it to the point cost of the ship:

"You score half points on any ship which costs >29pts, which has suffered damage equal or greater than half it's combined shield and hull value."

The wording means you also get half points on a regenerating ships, so as long as Miranda suffered 5 damage throughout the game you get half points on her (even if she regens it). It's not the most elegant way to fix small ship fortressing, but it would work. 

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The more I think about it the more I really like that any ship that can attack at range 3 outside a primary arc can give up half points at half life. Ships with regen, once they've received damage equal to their starting total shield and hull value also give up half points. 

This makes TLT more risky while allowing for other turrets to function and hold all their points. 

The other thing you might add if your worried about brobots is that all large base ships and any small ship that can attack at range 3 outside their primary but I'm not sure brobots would need half points. Right now that's crushing them. 

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8 minutes ago, Danath said:

The more I think about it the more I really like that any ship that can attack at range 3 outside a primary arc can give up half points at half life. Ships with regen, once they've received damage equal to their starting total shield and hull value also give up half points. 

Other than Regen Norra which would trigger the half point condition based on regen are Arc's, Tie S/F's and Sheathipede shuttles *really* that much of a problem?  Those would all be impacted and I'm not sure they are really the problem we are trying to address.  It would affect wookies which I think is ok.  But it's an awkward rule and doesn't do anything against Kylo and his 45 point fortress.

Edited by viedit

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15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Time limit is the only problem here. points were implimented to allow time limits by setting a victory condition prior to the resolution of the dogfight, so just get rid of points.  no more point fortresses. 

have specific victory conditions: last man standing as the default, but alternate formats like capture the flag, escort mission, etc. would be easy to add in and change the pace

one player wins in the allowed time or else its a draw.  shifts the strategy back to playing the game as opposed to min-maxing your scorable end of game points

there are worse things than shaking hands over a draw

I think that would actually reinforce the regen/tankiness meta, so that if things don't go your way in the early engagements you can run away, take a knee, and salvage a draw. Not fun, but if you're the kind of player who focuses on scorable endgame points, you're also the kind of player who would happily run out the clock if your opponent gets the upper hand. Points at least put pressure on players to keep up the fight when they're on the back foot.

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15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the that rewards certain ships while punishing others. gonk is pretty balanced right now, for example. i think certain upgrades and pilots just need to be re-priced. 

R2d2 is absolutely worth 6 or 7 points, and Miranda is definitely too cheap for what she does. squad poit adjustments would fix almost everything in this game

Outside of an edge case with Tel before the Jump was nerfed, Gonk has zero competitive relevance.  He takes two actions to regen a single shield and costs you a crew slot.  That is a huge opportunity cost of using him.   Making R2D2 even more expensive just makes Poe an even bigger point fortress.

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

Other than Regen Norra which would trigger the half point condition based on regen are Arc's, Tie S/F's and Sheathipede shuttles *really* that much of a problem?  Those would all be impacted and I'm not sure they are really the problem we are trying to address.  It would affect wookies which I think is ok.  But it's an awkward rule and doesn't do anything against Kylo and his 45 point fortress.

Any ship that can run away while remaining effective *should* be subject to half points. If you're involved with the strategic side of x-wing at all, and the resources out there to the community, it should make you well aware of how much more effective the ability to fire outside your primary fire arc can bring, especially at range 3. 

I feel that half points came about to help promote the original game of x-wing. If you want a range 3 regular attack outside your arc (only falcons and outriders), your going to have to risk losing partial points. They may not have initially realized this but that's exactly what they were encouraging. In reality it's not going to affect the outcome of most games but it will provide some support to primary arc ships which seems to have the general consensus that is good for the game. 

If 45 point Kylo is a problem, I imagine there could be a rise of say primary arc ships that are great at dealing stress or maybe even bombs with jousting seeing a rise or even auto blaster turrets. 

Plus for the overall health of the game it's sometimes okay to lessen the value of certain cards or ships, I'm looking at you Aggromech and Blaster Turret. There is never going to be a perfect solution, especially not now given the age and state of the game.  This takes the most non wholesome things with an advantage over the standard ships and creates a cost to break the primary rule of x-wing instead of creating a new barrier to play under.

Instead of finding ways to point fortress under 8 health, or 7 health or 39 points or whatever, it create a fine line of, "if you want to fire outside your primary arc at Range 3, your going to have to risk giving up more points then a more wholesome squad. 

Edited by Danath
spelling fix

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My take the rules should be if large or hull + shields are 9 or more.    Yes this maked my beloved Punisher hurt even more, but it makes total sense.    Heck a possible fix would be on small ship non genericd with hull and shields 9+ this is for people complaining that generics are getting nerfed.   Of course doing this nerfs all ARc's

 

The Median of all small ships shields plus hull is 5,      5 ships are being effects and all are  3 IQR's or more from the median.   Outliers for sure.     Of course the punisher does get affected, but really with lightweight frame and sensor it can be a tank and would be if the empire had regen.  Now lets see:   4 of the 5 ships listed totally control the meta, without being half points.    If we make these ships half points, we instantly change the way people are forced to fly these ships.  

 

Those five are:

ARC

Wookie

K-wing

Scurrg

Punisher

 

That keeps 34 other small ships from being effected.

 

Ship Faction Shield Hull Total   9+        
A-wing  Rebel 2 2 4            
Arc Rebel 3 6 9   1        
Attack Shuttle Rebel 2 2 4            
B-wing  Rebel 3 5 8            
Wookie Rebel 3 6 9   1        
E-wing Rebel 3 2 5            
Hwk Rebel 1 4 5            
K-wing  Rebel 4 5 9   1        
Scurrg Rebel 5 5 10   1        
Sabines Tie Rebel 0 3 3            
Sheath Rebel 1 4 5            
T-70 Rebel 3 3 6            
t-65 Rebel 2 3 5            
y-wing Rebel 3 5 8            
Z-95 Rebel 2 2 4            
Gunboat Empire 3 4 7            
Tie SF Empire 3 3 6            
Tie ADV Empire 2 3 5            
Tie ADV PROTo Empire 2 2 4            
Tie Aggressor Empire 1 4 5            
Tie Bomber Empire 0 6 6            
Tie Defender Empire 3 3 6            
Tie Fighter Empire 0 3 3            
Tie Interceptor Empire 0 3 3            
Tie Phantom Empire 2 2 4            
Tie Punisher Empire 3 6 9   1        
Tie Silencer Empire 2 4 6            
Tie Striker Empire 0 4 4            
Tie FO Empire 1 3 4            
G1-A Scum 4 4 8            
Hawk Scum 1 4 5            
Kihraxz Scum 1 4 5            
Syck Scum 1 3 4            
Protectorate Scum 0 4 4            
Scurrg scum 5 5 10   1        
Quad Jumper Scum 0 5 5            
Kimogila Scum 2 6 8            
Star Viper Scum 1 4 5            
Y-wing Scum 3 5 8            
Z-95 Scum 2 2 4            
            Total number of ship affected        
Median       5   6  But since Scurgg is repeated,   really 5

 

Edited by eagletsi111

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I don't know why you're all so obsessed with linking it to 9+ HP ships. Surely it just makes more sense to tie the cut-off to the actual thing you're trying to stop.

"Ships that cost 30+ points give away half points once they've suffered damage equal to half their Shield + Hull value."

You're trying to stop point fortressing, so just make the cut-off the cost of the ship. It has the added benefit of buffing the cheaper big ships like the shuttle, ORS and YV666.

Edited by CRCL

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You have a choice: you can arbitrarily at what people are willing to pay for ships, or you can slightly less arbitrarily decide which ship chassis must have strong enough builds to make it worth losing half points. 

 

In the first case, you've decided that ships like 34-point QD and Wedge with an astromech are deserving of losing half points.  IMO, that's a huge downside. On the upside, you catch ships like Poe and Corran. 

 

In the second case, you're unfortunately catching the Punisher and the Lambda, but you're giving the Aggressor and the U-wing a chance. 

 

Neither is perfect, and I'm against half-MoV at all, but if it must be done, doing it at 9+ HP is the best way. 

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