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Can we just get Universal Half Points Already??

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38 minutes ago, viedit said:

I just don't know.  You manage to hit Quiz with a lucky bomb + Sabine and he's already worth half.  Palp is almost a guaranteed half point.  Take 3 shields off of quick draw and she's down.

That's 15 points for Palp

16 for Quiz

20 points for QD (she's rocking a harpoon)

That's 51 points.  Lose Palp and it's 65.  If you go against quad wookies you *HAVE* to kill at least 2 and half a third, or more than half 3 of them and outright kill another.  I think rebel jank lists will be happy to bleed 12 points of MOV on a 24 point ship if it means they can get 15+ from an acey one by jousting.  I don't think this goes well for Imps.

What if you took the calculation out of it (which seems to be what gets the most objection - IE., complex rules to follow for figuring out points) and just awarded half points on anything that ends the game with 2 or more damage cards on it?  (Yes, I realize this means you never get half points on quite a lot of ships - including some potentially 'expensive' builds such as E-Wings.  Not sure that's a problem, but open to being convinced....)

((Also, yes, I realize this provides - all other things being equal - slightly increased value to shields over hull.  I think I'm also fine with that, the value of shields in the game compared to hull doesn't seem quite where it should be for what you pay for them))

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To everyone saying there should be a point threshold, somewhere between 25-40, you're just giving Wookiees a free pass. And you're just repeating the same mistake FFG made when they mad the half points rules large ship only. It's an arbitrary distinction that's trying to protect something that's already dead and buried. Just apply it universally so that there's no point total for mini point fortresses to hide under. 

End half-point discrimination!

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10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

What if you took the calculation out of it (which seems to be what gets the most objection - IE., complex rules to follow for figuring out points) and just awarded half points on anything that ends the game with 2 or more damage cards on it?  (Yes, I realize this means you never get half points on quite a lot of ships - including some potentially 'expensive' builds such as E-Wings.  Not sure that's a problem, but open to being convinced....)

((Also, yes, I realize this provides - all other things being equal - slightly increased value to shields over hull.  I think I'm also fine with that, the value of shields in the game compared to hull doesn't seem quite where it should be for what you pay for them))

Kylo or Wampa anything twice and now they are automatically at half points.  That's abusive.  Plus harpoons deal one direct damage under shields.  Eat two of them and you are done.

Edited by viedit

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The problem with 1/2 points on small based ships is that while working to help those who are up against Miranda or wookies, it hurts far more others.

Defenders get hosed.

Tie/SF gets hosed.

New Gunboats, Fenn, Kylo, Vader, Starvipers ... all hosed.

There are other ways to "fix" wookies and Miranda.

But the truth is that the meta is not in a terible place at the moment. I can not remember a regional season that was so wide open with the lists that were making the cut. Is is Rebel heavy at the moment? Yes. And Imperials are currently fighting an up hill battle... but there is still a pretty varied meta overall compared to seasons prior with 1 or 2 lists (with very few variants) dominating everything thing.

If you want to play 1/2 point for everything, you are welcome to house rules. Casual is more fun than competitive most of the time anyway.

Edited by Sephlar

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3 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Why half points on specific ships and stuff. Couldn't we just mov off of total list health compared to total health lost? 100pt list with 27 hp. Loses say 17hp? 63pts

 

 

I'm not following your math here.

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2 minutes ago, viedit said:

I'm not following your math here.

When 100pts is divided into 27 hp each hp lost would be worth 3.7pts

17 lost hp would be 62.9 pts lost rounded up to 63.

 

 

I only picked 27 hp cause that's my current list. It works with anything

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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Im sorry, but what exactly is the problem? I think the main problem is that this game got WAY too competitive and the rules that are adapted because of it ruin the initial fun you had with casual games. The thrill of flying 7 or 8 TIEs into battle ruined by dem meta... plz dont ruin more of it with half points...

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6 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

When 100pts is divided into 27 hp each hp lost would be worth 3.7pts

17 lost hp would be 62.9 pts lost rounded up to 63.

 

 

I only picked 27 hp cause that's my current list. It works with anything

My problem there is that a cheap generic has the same overall value as a named pilot of the same chassis.  If you have a 38 point Ryad and a 28 point Delta Defender I'm just going to try and ignore Ryad as much as I can and pick on the little guy.  It's the same point cost.  I think this drives *too much* math wing.

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Just now, viedit said:

My problem there is that a cheap generic has the same overall value as a named pilot of the same chassis.  If you have a 38 point Ryad and a 28 point Delta Defender I'm just going to try and ignore Ryad as much as I can and pick on the little guy.  It's the same point cost.  I think this drives *too much* math wing.

Accept that as long as we have squad point values, hull values, and shield values... anyway you use those to determine a winner or win conditions.... there is math involved and sometimes that means killing a particular ship first as opposed to the one that a fictional dog fight might actually want to kill first.

X wing is a game. One chooses to have fun with the game, or make it into an overly serious competition.

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It should be all or nothing.  If neither of those flies then set the half point limit at points and for that I'd say 25 points although less expensive ships could award 1 point for cost over 12.

I certainly don't want to see this go to a points/hitpoint thing where someone thinks points should be earned for EVERY shield lost or damage card taken; that's just too much work.  I've never been a fan of the way half points are done.  I figure that the half hit points should be when a ship is at 50% hull or less and I've also figured the points should be from the base pilot excluding any upgrades; I know some ships have a lot of points in upgrades and not counting them in the "half" makes dropping a ship to half hp less effective but it really should be less effective than destroying the ship.

 

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If you do it by points, you are sharply and arbitrarily deciding the cut-off for what people will fly.  There is no way that anybody flies a 34-point QD -- a perfectly reasonable, non-abusive ship -- if the cut-off for half points is 33 points value.  People might fly a 60 point ship (just as they do now, with half-point Larges), but they certainly will not fly a 40-point ship.

If you do it on a total points/HP basis, the complication is massive and the logistics are terrible, but even aside from that, you are making absolutely no real attempt to estimate the true tactical value of the ending state.  Eight TIE fighters with 1 HP each are clearly in a good position to win most matches, but they have lost 50 points, so are probably losing or, at best, tied!

If you do it on a HP cut-off, at least you are targeting the chassis of those ships that, historically, have served as point-fortresses.  (Yes, you're missing Corran, and maybe Poe, but that's about it.)  As another benefit, you're giving a subtle bump to U-wings and to Aggressors, neither one of which deserves to suffer from a half-points rule.

Again, there are unavoidable problems with a half-point rule, period, but the best of the bad options is 9 HP+.

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4 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

Accept that as long as we have squad point values, hull values, and shield values... anyway you use those to determine a winner or win conditions.... there is math involved and sometimes that means killing a particular ship first as opposed to the one that a fictional dog fight might actually want to kill first.

X wing is a game. One chooses to have fun with the game, or make it into an overly serious competition.

Thank you, was trying to write something similar but you phrased it better.

 

I just think there should be a way to have small ships give up points without dying that will hurt 2 expensive ship lists more than swarms. Half points hits swarms harder than intended target. List hp doesnt.

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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6 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

Accept that as long as we have squad point values, hull values, and shield values... anyway you use those to determine a winner or win conditions.... there is math involved and sometimes that means killing a particular ship first as opposed to the one that a fictional dog fight might actually want to kill first.

X wing is a game. One chooses to have fun with the game, or make it into an overly serious competition.

My point exactly! Thank you!

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9 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

Accept that as long as we have squad point values, hull values, and shield values... anyway you use those to determine a winner or win conditions.... there is math involved and sometimes that means killing a particular ship first as opposed to the one that a fictional dog fight might actually want to kill first.

X wing is a game. One chooses to have fun with the game, or make it into an overly serious competition.

 

But the game gets into a world that I don't necessarily want to compete in when you can "win" by knocking two shields off of a y-wing on a last turn that would otherwise be completely inconsequential.  I just think it really takes the game to a place that is very far away from any level of "fun".  

Edited by viedit

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1 hour ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

Im sorry, but what exactly is the problem? I think the main problem is that this game got WAY too competitive and the rules that are adapted because of it ruin the initial fun you had with casual games. The thrill of flying 7 or 8 TIEs into battle ruined by dem meta... plz dont ruin more of it with half points...

The problem is that tournament games are timed and players are incentivized to run away and hide after they're down to one ship because that 1 ships is worth more than their opponent's one ship and more durable, and that creates an NPE for both players because both of them want to fight a conclusive battle but one player is forced to disengage and whether potshots until time is called instead of turning into their opponent and trying to kill them. 

If you only play casual and don't play in tournaments then this conversation has literally nothing to do with you or impact you in any way, so not sure what your other sentence has to do with this conversation. I think you're barking at the wrong tree here, FFG designs the game and the rules, not the tournament players.

1 hour ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Why half points on specific ships and stuff. Couldn't we just mov off of total list health compared to total health lost? 100pt list with 27 hp. Loses say 17hp? 63pts

Because asking players to calculate points with that kind of granularity every round and more importantly every turn of the game to figure out whether they are winning  or losing is unreasonable. While somewhat clunky, half-points for half damage has been an effective and relatively simple system since it was introduced, it's just incomplete for not applying to small ships, which it should have from the beginning with things like Corran and Whisper running around at the time, now it's just gotten worse.

For those saying that half points would hurt non-fortress ships, that is only half true. It would hurt them, but it would hurt the true points fortresses (including the 25 point wookiees) much much more, which is a net positive for ships that aren't trying to win on points after time is up. 

Edited by Tvboy

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Im all for 9+hp being half pts. Its probably the most reasonable and easiest fix.

EDIT: With one caveat, if a 9+hp ship has 1 hull damage, no matter how many shields, it is worth half points. This makes Timewalk Asajj just a tad easier to half-pts (4dmg instead of 5dmg) and Miranda can regen all the shields she wants but if she has 1 hull dmg, she is worth half pts. Ghost/Deci/Falcons will suffer a little from this rule, but they are large base turret ships and I dont feel sorry for them in the least.

Edited by wurms

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4 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Only if we get rid of regen wholesale.

What about if you tracked 'damage' seperately to actual shields & hitpoints in tournament play?

Miranda might have regenerated 13 hitpoints and look unscathed, but in terms of points, she's a 0pt ship, because she exceeded her initial health value in damage suffered.

Then regen comes about keeping a ship on the table and contributing, instead of being about locking points away (And the temptation to simply run like a lunatic that keeps happening in such situations).

This rule would also come with an addentium that a 0pt ship still counts as a win if it's on the table; the Nashta Pup will be thankful for the clarification. :) 

Edited by Reiver

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20 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Because asking players to calculate points with that kind of granularity every round and more importantly every turn of the game to figure out whether they are winning  or losing is unreasonable. While somewhat clunky, half-points for half damage has been an effective and relatively simple system since it was introduced, it's just incomplete for not applying to small ships, which it should have from the beginning with things like Corran and Whisper running around at the time, now it's just gotten worse.

For those saying that half points would hurt non-fortress ships, that is only half true. It would hurt them, but it would hurt the true points fortresses (including the 25 point wookiees) much much more, which is a net positive for ships that aren't trying to win on points after time is up. 

Whisper/Soontir are 2 damage for 1/2 points. Corran could be 10+ damage to get half points. Regen is something that made Corran, Poe, Mirranda so incredible on top of their other weapons. Whisper and Soontir have awesome weapons, but they are stupid squishy with no recovery. Without regen Poe and Mirranda still get played, without it Corran would never had been played due to his cost.

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Also if we're doing half points on all ships, doesn't that, within some spectrum, recreate the fat large base ships problem we had before. Fat half point large ship still beats fat half point small ship in most cases.

 

I think it would need to be a combination of hull, agility and possibly total points but coming up with that formula sounds like a pain. 

 

What would make things really interesting, because one of the major contributors to the fat ships, was turrets. If they made ships with turrets and over a certain point value worth half points how that would effect things. The shadow caster kind of messes that up so maybe you'd have to include anything that can fire outside primary arcs or that has a non primary arc. 

 

Edit: You'd also I think need to throw in something for regen ships. 

Edited by Danath

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6 minutes ago, Reiver said:

What about if you tracked 'damage' seperately to actual shields & hitpoints in tournament play?

Miranda might have regenerated 13 hitpoints and look unscathed, but in terms of points, she's a 0pt ship, because she exceeded her initial health value in damage suffered.

Then regen comes about keeping a ship on the table and contributing, instead of being about locking points away (And the temptation to simply run like a lunatic that keeps happening in such situations).

This rule would also come with an addentium that a 0pt ship still counts as a win if it's on the table; the Nashta Pup will be thankful for the clarification. :) 

This is why I think that the regen should be up to your original shield value. Set tokens on the card and regen take one off of their. And Mirranda would lose her shield if she increases her weapon, not set it on the card.

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16 minutes ago, wurms said:

Im all for 9+hp being half pts. Its probably the most reasonable and easiest fix.

EDIT: With one caveat, if a 9+hp ship has 1 hull damage, no matter how many shields, it is worth half points. This makes Timewalk Asajj just a tad easier to half-pts (4dmg instead of 5dmg) and Miranda can regen all the shields she wants but if she has 1 hull dmg, she is worth half pts. Ghost/Deci/Falcons will suffer a little from this rule, but they are large base turret ships and I dont feel sorry for them in the least.

Remember, my suggestion is for a half-points token.  If you're 9+ HP, and you get to half-HP, you get the token.  Regen is irrelevant, except for keeping you alive.  If you're carrying the token at the end of the game, your opponent gets the points.

(I do not want to derail, but this even allows some design space.  E.g., "Strategic Specialist, Crew: Action: Once per game, remove a half-points token from a friendly ship.")

Edited by Jeff Wilder

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Remember, my suggestion is for a half-points token.  If you're 9+ HP, and you get to half-HP, you get the token.  Regen is irrelevant, except for keeping you alive.  If you're carrying the token at the end of the game, your opponent gets the points.

(I do not want to derail, but this even allows some design space.  E.g., "Strategic Specialist, Crew: Action: Once per game, remove a half-points token from a friendly ship.")

Aw, must have missed the token part. Yeah, anything similar like that is the way to go

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