Unplayable/useless ships?

[Estarriol 1,607]

4 hours ago, Astech said:

Quadjumpers are perfectly viable when paired with cloaking device and Cikatro, especially Unkar and the gunrunner.

My list of truly useless ships at the moment is as follows, and is defined as ships that are eclipsed in their role by other builds doing the same thing better/cheaper/more reliably.

B-Wing
E-wing
HWK-290
U-Wing
T-65 X-wing
YT-1300
Y-wing (except maybe stress bot)

Firespray (despite a phenomenal player winning a regional recently with one)
TIE Advanced (even vader)
TIE Advaced Prototype
TIE Bomber
TIE Fighter (except as filler)
TIE Interceptor
TIE Phantom
Upsilon Shuttle

Aggressor
G1-A
Kimogila
M3-A Interceptor
Starviper (except the amazingly fun Thweek)
YV-666

All these ships have nice gimmicks and synergies, but they're simply eclipsed by other ships that do the same - or incredibly similar - things far better.

I didn’t realise you were joking until I got to the Falcon. Good one

[Astech 1,540]

21 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

I didn’t realise you were joking until I got to the Falcon. Good one

Rey and Han are the only viable builds (Ragin' Chewy is a fun footnote). Both of them lose the opening salvo because harpoons, and both are too expensive to get a proper Poe wingman in place. Rey's 4-die attack is simply outclassed by Dash, for many points cheaper and Han's tankiness has been superseded by Kanan/Fenn. In short, none of the YT-1300s are the best at anything they can do, except killing Phantoms.

Nevertheless, the YT-1300, E-wing and Kimogila are probably the most borderline cases.

[Admiral Deathrain 5,228]

8 minutes ago, Astech said:

Rey and Han are the only viable builds (Ragin' Chewy is a fun footnote). Both of them lose the opening salvo because harpoons, and both are too expensive to get a proper Poe wingman in place. Rey's 4-die attack is simply outclassed by Dash, for many points cheaper and Han's tankiness has been superseded by Kanan/Fenn. In short, none of the YT-1300s are the best at anything they can do, except killing Phantoms.

Nevertheless, the YT-1300, E-wing and Kimogila are probably the most borderline cases.

Nah, Vader is. He is after all integral to the PS11 Harpoon list, which is very high tier 2 at least, I'd argue tier 1.

[Astech 1,540]

13 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Nah, Vader is. He is after all integral to the PS11 Harpoon list, which is very high tier 2 at least, I'd argue tier 1.

Vader is eclipsed by Quickdraw, who does pretty much all the same things but better. The only reason you'd take Vader is if you already have QD in your list, hence his importance in the PS11 Alpha lists. However, the PS11 alpha is inherrently flawed, since it loses out in the exchange against the Nu,Nu,Nu + QD meta list. Vader's still an amazingly fun pilot to fly, especially for a wave 1 ship, but he just isn't what he used to be.

Rey, Corran and the Kimogila are just "different" variations on Kanan, Poe and Gunboats that don't happen to fit the current meta.

[Estarriol 1,607]

Advanced, prototype, yv-666, starviper all have excellent builds and uses and all have made cuts recently (with the possible exception of the -666).

 

[Vontoothskie 1,086]

the latest waves have basically broken the game. i would recommend that for casual games you simply skip waves 11, 12, and 13 until you find your groove in list building. 

keep in mind 2 dice attacks no longer work period. all 2 dice ships, literally all of them, are no longer competitive unless they can equip a bigger gun. ships like the auzituck are basically immune to damage from 2 dice, while other ships consistently deal 3 or 4 damage a turn while regenerating health or avoiding damage entirely. its bogus

[Smutpedler 1,301]

I see lots of people saying 2 dice ships are not good enough. The Shethipede seems to be doing the rounds a LOT; I know it's not for it's damage output but it's still a 2 dice ship. For a mobile 15pt blocker you could do far worse than a Protoype A-Wing or an academy TIE. Quadjumpers with spacetug etc. It's not all about the dice output.

That said; there is a very noticeable power creep jump and I do find it frustrating that some ships feel very handicapped in a competitive environment. My T-65's and B-Wings have only really come out of the foam for HotAC in the last... 2 years maybe? Other than an OT tournament...

[Astech 1,540]

11 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Advanced, prototype, yv-666, starviper all have excellent builds and uses and all have made cuts recently (with the possible exception of the -666).

I believe the YV-666 is pretty vulnerable to harpoons... Just a little. The Adv. Prototype is in the terrible space of being PS 8, so moving after both Miranda and Nym with their enormous initiative bids, and being destroyed by bombs immediately. The starviper requires enormous skill to fly, and outright loses to a great deal of lists. The Advanced suffers from chronic "lack of autothrusters" syndrome, preventing it from ever being as good as Fenn.

[FTS Gecko 22,654]

8 minutes ago, Astech said:

I believe the YV-666 is pretty vulnerable to harpoons... Just a little. The Adv. Prototype is in the terrible space of being PS 8, so moving after both Miranda and Nym with their enormous initiative bids, and being destroyed by bombs immediately. The starviper requires enormous skill to fly, and outright loses to a great deal of lists. The Advanced suffers from chronic "lack of autothrusters" syndrome, preventing it from ever being as good as Fenn.

[Estarriol 1,607]

Well, I guess if you’re determined to lose the game before set up, knock yourself out  

I’ll be over here having fun with the rest of my collection. If you want to send me your ‘truly useless’ stuff go right ahead! 

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

59 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

I see lots of people saying 2 dice ships are not good enough. The Shethipede seems to be doing the rounds a LOT; I know it's not for it's damage output but it's still a 2 dice ship. For a mobile 15pt blocker you could do far worse than a Protoype A-Wing or an academy TIE. Quadjumpers with spacetug etc. It's not all about the dice output.

That said; there is a very noticeable power creep jump and I do find it frustrating that some ships feel very handicapped in a competitive environment. My T-65's and B-Wings have only really come out of the foam for HotAC in the last... 2 years maybe? Other than an OT tournament...

Saying that 2 dice ships suffer, is so obviously about the ships that want to deal damage with their 2 dice attacks. 

More often than not these ships lack the slots to make them better at something else, and 2 dice attacks are not enough. 

Yes, the sheatipede is good, but it has double arcs, really good abilities, and an amazing selection of slots. 

It does offense better than the TIE (two arcs) while doing extra things. 

Please don't compare the two. Also it doesn't help that you can only win the game by dealing damage, and if you have a ship that doesn't do that, or prevent the enemy from doing the same, your points aren't doing anything. 

[Smutpedler 1,301]

10 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Saying that 2 dice ships suffer, is so obviously about the ships that want to deal damage with their 2 dice attacks. 

More often than not these ships lack the slots to make them better at something else, and 2 dice attacks are not enough. 

Yes, the sheatipede is good, but it has double arcs, really good abilities, and an amazing selection of slots. 

It does offense better than the TIE (two arcs) while doing extra things. 

Please don't compare the two. Also it doesn't help that you can only win the game by dealing damage, and if you have a ship that doesn't do that, or prevent the enemy from doing the same, your points aren't doing anything. 

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying there's more to the game than raw dice output. Which there is. 

I'm not saying 2 dice attack ships don't suffer. I'm saying that they are "useless" is hyperbole.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Smutpedler

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

8 minutes ago, Smutpedler said:

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying there's more to the game than raw dice output. Which there is. 

I'm not saying 2 dice attack ships don't suffer. I'm saying that they are "useless" is hyperbole.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

Yeah there is more to it for SOME ships. Other ships aren't so lucky. 

[Smutpedler 1,301]

2 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Yeah there is more to it for SOME ships. Other ships aren't so lucky. 

Very much so.

Again though; blockers can be very effective for both board control and action denial. Cheap mobile 2 die ships are usually not a bad choice as they're not there to damage but to deny actions or board areas. That was the reason I brought up A-Wings and Academy TIE's; not comparing them to the Shethipede which is brought as a support ship for other types of control.  Don't get me wrong; with all the advanced sensors, PS11 co-ordinate, expertise, bombs, glitterstim, etc. about the tactic is becoming MUCH less viable but in the right circumstances they can be well worth their points. Probably not very efficient in competitive play these days but blocking can still be a useful skill to learn.

I guess my point is really that 2 die ships DO have uses but, yeah, if you're bringing them to hurt things; you probably want to rethink that strategy. 

[Ccwebb 456]

23 hours ago, Vordyn said:

Current bottom 11 ships on meta-wing.com

44.) A-Wing

45.) Upsilon-class Shuttle

46.) B-Wing

47.) Z-95 (Scum)

48.) HWK-290 (Rebel)

49.) G1-A

50.) Firespray-31 (Imp)

51.) TIE Interceptor

52.) TIE Phantom

53.) U-Wing

54.) TIE Punisher

Wow.... how the wicked (Phantom) has fallen.  

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

1 minute ago, Ccwebb said:

Wow.... how the wicked (Phantom) has fallen.  

It's kinda hard not to when every single high tier archetype seems to be made against the phantom.

High PS, Bombs, Turrets, fully modded 4 dice attacks...

[Azrapse 3,040]

An A-wing shouldn't need missiles to damage another ship. In the lore, they don't hit hard, but they were able to stick behind a target and pound them with constant fire that in the long run would be as effective as a single stronger hit.
They need to reflect this other than with their dial.

Persistent
EPT
When performing a primary weapon attack against a ship in your forward firing arc, if you are not in the defender's firing arc, 1 of your hit results cannot be countered by defense dice.
Your attack score must be lower than your agility score to equip this upgrade.

 

That is like a buff to A-wings, HWKs, TIE Fighters, TIE/FO Fighters, TIE Adv Prototypes, TIE Advanced, etc.

A Z-95 is okay if it's main use is to be a blocker. An A-wing, no. They were interceptors, meant to destroy stuff.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Azrapse

[Boom Owl 10,314]

23 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

It's kinda hard not to when every single high tier archetype seems to be made against the phantom.

High PS, Bombs, Turrets, fully modded 4 dice attacks...

And yet...you can still just put it next to the Kylo Silencer or RAC/Kylo and win a huge # of games consistently against all of those things. 

Its starting to feel like the only criteria for a ship being considered useful around here is if it can win worlds, never takes damage, has lots of health, or can be put on autopilot. 

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

Just now, Boom Owl said:

And yet...you can still just put it next to the Kylo Silencer or RAC/Kylo and win a huge # of games consistently against all of those things. 

Its starting to feel like the only criteria for a ship being considered useful around here is if it can win worlds, never takes damage, has lots of health, or can be put on autopilot. 

I just assume equal skill, as any discussions of balance ever, should.

 

And yeah, lots of health is pretty much necessary, as the designers made sure that green dice are no longer effective as defense.

 

[Boom Owl 10,314]

2 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

I just assume equal skill, as any discussions of balance ever, should.

 

And yeah, lots of health is pretty much necessary, as the designers made sure that green dice are no longer effective as defense.

 

What do you mean by equal skill?

Also...green dice are absolutely still effective defense. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Boom Owl

[RufusDaMan 2,299]

Just now, Boom Owl said:

What do you mean by equal skill?

Also...green dice are absolutely still effective defense. 

What do you mean, what do I mean by equal skill?

 

I assume that both players play with an equal skill. I don't assume that Player A will employ tactics that benefit player B, and I don't assume that they make great mistakes.

So advice like: "Try to stick to range 3 and plonk away their hull" isn't really working, since sticking to range 3 requires the other player to let you do that.

 

Why? Because a better player is more likely to win an unequal match-up, but that has nothing to do with balance.

 

And no, green dice is not an effective defense. First of all, it depends on luck, and can only be modified partially. Second, they don't do jack **** against bombs or other autodamage, and they are less effective against secondary weapons.

These are all drawbacks of green dice defense, none of which are present for high health ships. There are very few secondary weapons that care about your Hull or Shield values, and they are non variable. They are also a passive defense.

 

High Health is always better than low health high agility, unless we are looking at the best case scenarios for high agility (range 3, AT, focus and/or evade for modifying)

Now, since high health always performs the same, regardless of the player's skill, and the state of the game, it is more reliable.

More reliable means better.

Yes, Green dice are still doing what they are doing. But they are the 2nd best option for ships, from a choice of 2.

 

This could be fixed, and I suggested things like an EPT that deals extra damage if the defender's Hull value is above 4, and by allowing low health ships to do sth against bombs.

[SEApocalypse 4,385]

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the latest waves have basically broken the game. i would recommend that for casual games you simply skip waves 11, 12, and 13 until you find your groove in list building. 

keep in mind 2 dice attacks no longer work period. all 2 dice ships, literally all of them, are no longer competitive unless they can equip a bigger gun. ships like the auzituck are basically immune to damage from 2 dice, while other ships consistently deal 3 or 4 damage a turn while regenerating health or avoiding damage entirely. its bogus

Fenn Rau.
Captain Rex. 
The Inquisitor. 
Omega Leader. 

I get your basic idea and this is true. Two dice are dead, because defenses are a lot higher on many common list to make two dice alone reliable. But their are some niches left, mostly based on pilot abilities. And ironically both Fenn Rau and the Inquisitor are two hot ships in the current meta. Fenn Rau for obvious reasons as defensive piece for low agility rebel lists and the Inquisitor as answer to TLT and Harpoon spam, because he can take it with his amount of agility dice, combined with dice modifications. Having a harpoon missile on top certainly does help as well ... but not all successful inquisitor builds have harpoons. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by SEApocalypse

[william1134 444]

Ohh ohh !!!!

The YT-2400 with wild space fringer!

Or maybe the YT-2400 without the outrider title!

[Astech 1,540]

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Fenn Rau.
Captain Rex. 
The Inquisitor. 
Omega Leader. 

I get your basic idea and this is true. Two dice are dead, because defenses are a lot higher on many common list to make two dice alone reliable. But their are some niches left, mostly based on pilot abilities. And ironically both Fenn Rau and the Inquisitor are two hot ships in the current meta. Fenn Rau for obvious reasons as defensive piece for low agility rebel lists and the Inquisitor as answer to TLT and Harpoon spam, because he can take it with his amount of agility dice, combined with dice modifications. Having a harpoon missile on top certainly does help as well ... but not all successful inquisitor builds have harpoons. 

Rau technically is a 2-die ship, but he's really a set of non-combat abilities that mess with the opponent. The same goes for Rex - their actual attack isn't expected to ever do anything. The Inquisitor is essentially an ATT3 primary with no range 1 bonus (except in the fun case against autothrusters), and Omega leader has her permanent crack shot for pushing through damage.

The Inquisitor may be able to tank a harpoon, but Fenn is free to just boost into R1 and unload prockets every turn.

7 hours ago, william1134 said:

Ohh ohh !!!!

The YT-2400 with wild space fringer!

Or maybe the YT-2400 without the outrider title!

Hey, I've almost won a game against Dengar and Timewalk Asajj while flying to WSFs with HLCs (one with Rey) and a stressbot Y-wing. It's entirely viable and often blindsides opponents. As an added bonus you get to keep the 2-die turret.

Using their brilliant dials I trapped Dengar on a rock for 5-6 turns in a row, killing him without taking meaningful damage. Then I whittled down Asajj to 2 health before losing to attrition.

[Purple Orc 40]

So after talking about backward unlimted bombs I came up with this list. I hoping to play it this weekend.

 

Quadjumper: •Constable Zuvio (30)
        Spacetug Tractor Array (2)
        •Cad Bane (2)
        •Bomblet Generator (3)
        Pattern Analyzer (2)
        •Cloaking Device (2)

G-1A Starfighter: •4-LOM (34)
        Engine Upgrade (4)
        •Mist Hunter (0)
        Wired (1)
        •Zuckuss (1)
        Tractor Beam (1)

M3-A Interceptor: Cartel Spacer (21)
        Stealth Device (3)
        "Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (2)
        Flechette Cannon (2)

Z-95 Headhunter: Binayre Pirate (15)
        Guidance Chips (0)
        Proton Rockets (3)

Total:  100/100

 

Will it win a turnament, **** no but it will be fun

Edited February 7, 2018 by Purple Orc