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reznoob

Forgot to Spend Beneficial Conditions

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What happens if a player performs an attack with a hidden/focused figure and forgets to use their beneficial condition and the attack resolves. 

Example: 

1.) Focused Onar opens door and shoots jyn without using their focus token (they forgot). 

2.) Onar doesn't have range, jyn rolls an evade. 

3.) Jyn uses nimble for her evade result, moves two spaces.

4.) Onar's activation ends.

5.) Player using Onar states that he/she forgot to use their focus token. 

 

What happens then? Does Onar lose their focus token? Does he keep it? Do they go back to step 2.) and attack with the correct set of dice? Do they maintain the original results and just add the green dice? 

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In my opinion, whenever mandatory effects are missed like this, you should try to go back and fix it assuming it isn't very hard to fix.

In this case, it is super easy to fix, just roll one more green die and resume the attack steps from there.

Things get a little more complicated if information has been revealed based on results or choices the players made based off the mistake or that took place after the mistake.  In those cases, it is much more likely to be a case of "Too bad" and you also lose the conditions or miss out on whatever mandatory effect you were supposed to do.

It also depends on how much of a jerk you or your opponent are and what is on the line. :)

In all cases like this, when you don't know what to do or the other player disagrees, call a judge as soon as possible.

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Focused and Hidden are mandatory.

Both players (in skirmish) are responsible for mandatory effects.

If no new information has been revealed, it's easy to fix.

If new information has been revealed, then it's up to the players or ultimately the TO / Judge to resolve.

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Just like the guys said. As for new information, I typically try to fix the case with my opponent (ok, I add bonus die, but you can revert your zillo or CC OR the attack stays as it is but the conditon isn't discarded). Loosing condition without it's effecty is too punishing for the attacker, because - as stated before - keeping track of mandatory effects is both players responsibility. Also, when you decide to retain focus, both player takes consequences - defender revealed his command card and the attacker exhausted figure with focus, so it is very likely, that he won't have another chance to use it (or to focus it again).

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When you get yourself into a mess, it can be another mess just to untangle it. As others said, it is the responsibility of BOTH players to catch these mandatory effects. Try to keep a clean and orderly table. This is why I try to consistently put ALL condition tokens on the board, an easy reference for both players.

I saw Todd make a decision on something similar, but I can't remember if he ruled for a redo/rerolls or not.

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#1, this is why I hate mandatory beneficial triggers in games, the only person who should be punished for forgetting to use their own effects at the correct time is the person who benefits from them. 

IMO if the game has gotten to a point where players can't just go back and roll the extra dice / add the surge, then the condition should be removed and just continue play. Keeping the condition on the figure creates a weird situation where that figure now has a focus/hidden at a point in the game where they shouldn't. Players shouldn't be rewarded for missing mandatory triggers anyway. 

Also it can be tricky to say whether or not it's even too late to add that die, because players might not remember what the die roll results were and an extra die could have completely changed things in a way that doesn't just add straight damage from the results. 

For example, focused Rebel Trooper moves up and attacks Vader as the last activation in the round and gets 2 hits on his blue/yellow roll and Vader rolls 3 total blocks. 0 damage dealt, Vader doesn't even need to use foresight. The dice are swept away, players then maybe play and resolve a couple of command cards, figure out end of round scoring, then Vader moves 2 spaces and goes to make his attack. Before dice are rolled, Vader player notices the Rebel Trooper that attacked him was focused, but neither player can remember what the exact roll was.  If the Rebel Trooper just rolls a green die and gets a hit and a surge, that would have actually resulted in Vader taking 2 damage because of the pierce 2 from the surge. And if the players don't remember Vader's defense roll, how would you even resolve foresight at that point? 

But then if the Rebel trooper is allowed to keep that focus, well now he has Aim active whereas last round he didn't, so now he's getting to combine Aim and the focus in a way he couldn't have before without skipping his attack. 

TL:DR, it's not uncommon for players to forget the exact results of a dice roll that happened only minutes earlier, and that's why I would be hesitant to say "just roll the die and add the results to the damage dealt" in a situation like that, especially if we're talking about premiere level play. In casual play obviously just do whatever makes both players happy, but if you're feeling a bit cut throat, I think it's totally reasonable to say "hey, we already picked up the dice a while ago, you forgot to roll your extra die, I don't remember the exact results, but you shouldn't have that condition anymore." 

Edit: In the case of the actual OP example, I think if you're still in the same activation, and both players can agree on what the exact dice roll results were and where Jyn was when the attack started (because now the exact accuracy results on the dice matter too), then you should just add the extra die. IDK if that contradicts everything I said above.  

Edited by Tvboy

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The only problem with "Oops, too bad" is that it somewhat encourages players to ignore as much game state that isn't beneficial to them as possible.

Think about a similar scenario to above, except instead of Focus, the effect is Weaken.  Let's say it did some extra damage to a figure that then died due to an end of round attack.  Only in the next round did you find out that the figure that dealt the extra damage was supposed to be weakened, maybe because the player is keeping all of his damage and conditions off the board which people commonly do.

Both players "forgot" the figure was weakened, so oh well, guess just remove the condition and keep going.

This is mainly why I'm in favor of trying to fix things when possible.  Obviously sometimes you just can't, and in those cases, it truly is "too bad".  But the rest of the time, so as not to encourage bad behavior, both players should try to play as correctly as possible, and perhaps be punished for not doing so.

When you're attacking your opponent's IG-88, and you roll 5 damage and he rolls 1 block, do you then say "No modifiers for me. 4 damage?" to try to make your opponent forget the innate block?  Then if you make it to where a command card is played or some info is revealed, you can argue he can't go back and fix it.

Obviously people forget for real and there's plenty to keep track of on your side of the board.  I sure hope nobody does this, but I'd rather not see this kind of play on purpose or encouraged at all.  This is why I'm in favor of "Try to fix it if it is at all reasonable to do so" vs "Oops, too bad".

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The issue here is not within rolling back to re-do something or to acknolowdge that as a "woops, too bad", this is more a matter of people's behaviour during a game.
Why? because when people play fair, almost nothing gets missed, you might forget about 1 or 2 really small things, but in that case if both players didn't consider that and move on with the game, then it becomes a "woops, too bad".
During each game, i always note my opponent about every action i do, every mod i apply and everything he does or miss aswell, because it's the right thing to do and it just follows the rules in an unquestionable way. Then, i'm human too and i might miss something aswell, mainly on my side unofrtunately because i'm more concerned about what is he going to do next to my activation rather than what should i do now to spank his weequays XD [Yep, Weequays everywhere].
This happens to me frequently during this period due to my health conditions being in a bad shape, still when i realize that i forgot to "do that thing" and game has already moved on, i just note that to my opponent and say "my bad". More than once, tho, my opponent knew about one effect that i didn't remind to use and said nothing until it was too late, that's surely not his fault for the misplay, but when that happens i usually accept that and become stubborn about game rules, so that each time he does something in a wrong way or not by following ruling steps, i just negate it and don't allow rollbacks, because the game rules talk clear.
Each time, instead, i had the pleasure to play with great players such as DT or Arviss or MadFuhrer (only once, but what a joy was that game XD), we always note to each others about everything, which is the most correct and fair way to play the game imho, especially with new players who still have to imprint the rules into their minds. 

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14 hours ago, DTDanix said:

The only problem with "Oops, too bad" is that it somewhat encourages players to ignore as much game state that isn't beneficial to them as possible.

And what's wrong with that? If both players only need pay attention to the things that benefit them, then everything in the game will have someone paying attention to it and making sure it happens. This makes things more efficient and also plays nicely with human nature. I don't want to be punished because I forgot to remind you about the cards you brought to the game on your side of the table, and vice versa. 

Think about a similar scenario to above, except instead of Focus, the effect is Weaken.  Let's say it did some extra damage to a figure that then died due to an end of round attack.  Only in the next round did you find out that the figure that dealt the extra damage was supposed to be weakened, maybe because the player is keeping all of his damage and conditions off the board which people commonly do.

Both players "forgot" the figure was weakened, so oh well, guess just remove the condition and keep going.

If a figure has a weakened condition on it, then most likely that condition didn't come from nobody, it was most likely inflicted by the opponent. The player that brought the card that inflicted the condition should ultimately be the one responsible for keeping track of it. After all, it could be speculated that the player who inflicted the Weakened condition waited to see the dice results and then conveniently "forgot" to apply the condition so it would stick around for the next attack. IMO, whether it's innocent or malicious, they should not be rewarded for forgetting to apply the condition they inflicted by keeping the token on for another round. 

This is mainly why I'm in favor of trying to fix things when possible.  Obviously sometimes you just can't, and in those cases, it truly is "too bad".  But the rest of the time, so as not to encourage bad behavior, both players should try to play as correctly as possible, and perhaps be punished for not doing so.

When you're attacking your opponent's IG-88, and you roll 5 damage and he rolls 1 block, do you then say "No modifiers for me. 4 damage?" to try to make your opponent forget the innate block?  Then if you make it to where a command card is played or some info is revealed, you can argue he can't go back and fix it.

Obviously people forget for real and there's plenty to keep track of on your side of the board.  I sure hope nobody does this, but I'd rather not see this kind of play on purpose or encouraged at all.  This is why I'm in favor of "Try to fix it if it is at all reasonable to do so" vs "Oops, too bad".

For the record, I also advocate for fixing the game state when it's possible. But I'm also saying that most likely unless the mistake is caught nearly immediately, it will be very easy to mess up the game state even more by misapplying a fix due to incomplete information. I cheer for idealism while I advocate for realism. And realistically, it's very easy for the average player to forget exact dice results after even a short period of time.

Also for the record, I believe that knowingly ignoring mandatory triggers on either side is always cheating. However, as you said board states can get extremely complex in this game, both on a technical and strategic level. When I first started playing the skirmish side of this game, I suffered from extreme analysis paralysis that I had not experienced in other games. I learned that I benefited greatly once I started focusing my mental energies solely on remembering to use my own figures and abilities, trusting that my opponent would be looking out for their own interests enough to remember to use the cards they had brought with them. Any time I tried to focus my mental energy on trying to figure out and remember when any of my opponent's cards would trigger to help them remember, I would immediately start forgetting my own triggers! 

But all that being said, assuming that there is a case where the condition cannot be retroactively applied and has to be considered a Missed Opportunity, DT are you in favor of the figure keeping the focus/weaken token if it was not used when it should have been? Or are you just saying that it should always just be retroactively applied? That was the main question here and the rules don't do a good job of telling us what to do in these situations.   

 

Edited by Tvboy

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I don't think it ever makes sense to carry over a condition that shouldn't be there.  If it comes down to being a missed opportunity, then you correct game state and move on.

The main thing I would like to try to avoid is people getting advantages for ignoring game state.  I shouldn't be able to shoot you with a weakened Han and ignore weaken to surge for +2 damage and you didn't notice because of where I'm placing my damage/conditions, then at the end of round go to shoot you again and be like "Oh, oops, weakened, let's remove that and shoot you now" without also having you remove the extra 2 damage from your figure.

Obviously we can come up with a complicated scenario where removing that 2 damage becomes extremely difficult if many things happened, and in those cases I get away with it, but we should be encouraged to make our best effort to correct game state in the pursuit of fairness.

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