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devin.pike.1989

Solo trailer. What did you think?

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2 minutes ago, LennoxPoodle said:

Too get back to the actual topic:

I don't want to get the Han Solo we see at the beginning of ANH. A (good) story needs character development so we need the protagonist BECOME the egoistic, professional and self observed  personality all of us know and love.

Based on what we see in the trailer it might go this way: Han initially is a somewhat idealistic, empathic and caring character who enlisted to make a difference. After getting kicked out of the academy he keeps his attitude and becomes a criminal with a heart. Qi'ra (and/or Harrelsons character) then uses those traits to get close to him for an eventual betrayal which emotionally hits Han. This could make him getting disillusioned, not getting attached, only watch the profit and shoot first with his "good traits" being hidden deep in his core until partly resurfaced by the Rebellion and Leia.

Enlisting to make a difference seems too uncharacteristic. I think it's more likely they take the Star Trek reboot approach here. I know. I know. I'm crossing the beams. But I could totally see Solo as a cocky rookie who gets kicked after he disobeys an order, maybe even to save/prevent something bad, but in a cocky way. Then he takes his skills to an alternative profession where cockiness and skills are appreciated. Smuggling.

I do like your idea on betrayal though. I feel like there needs to be a good one. He def has trust issues eventually, so that's gotta stem from somewhere. Not to tap Star Trek again, but abandonment as a child could do it.

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1 hour ago, borithan said:

Going to admit this was the one thing I really didn't like in the trailer. Well, at least when it broke into the Star Wars theme towards the end. Just something that didn't gel with me. 

Well... it was kind of inevitable? They couldn't have Harrison Ford playing him (obviously), so it was going to be someone different, and unless they did a flawless impression of Ford's Han Solo it was going to be different.

Now, I personally was not looking for this film. I have seen enough of the characters I know. I really liked Rogue One, and would have liked to have more films like that, with new characters we haven't heard mentioned before (and the fact that this next film is a Boba Fett one irritates me... unless they turn him into the hired mercenary thug that even Vader has to tell to "Cool it", rather than the "Villain with a code" that various EU presentations have shown him as). I also have my doubts of the lead, based on some of the comments that have leaked out, and I will admit also his appearance in the trailer... something doesn't quite sit with me as him being Han Solo. A little too generic "roguish action hero". Ok, that is what Han Solo is, but he is also has his unique elements. However, the rest of the trailer... looks good. Genuinely surprised by how much I felt "I now want to see this film."

Not having politics in movies is a political position. What is defined as "unpolitical" is an act of politics. It states that "This is all normal and how it should be and not examined and questioned." There have always been overtly political films since the days of silent film, but even those that aren't overtly political are a demonstration of the political norm at the time they were made. Note that the only reason it is noticeable that several films have recently been emphasising strong female leads in action roles is because until recently it wasn't common, and it still isn't the norm. I actually look at the current Star Wars films... and don't see much overt politics in the whole thing. It is actually quite subtle, the First Order aside.

And frankly, if they were having a "strong female lead" to avoid criticism, it seems to me that the criticism of those that have not liked the current direction of Star Wars has been much louder and more likely to hit profits than the criticism you might have got by some feminist academics for not having any strong female characters. OK, and maybe some dissapointed lines in some reviews which would have had no impact on the film's commercial success. Something along the lines of "Yet again we don't have many strong female characters, but the film is entertaining and well paced. Enjoyable entertainment if dissapointingly unadventurous and unwilling to move with the times."

Well, if Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke is as well.

Trained by the most powerful Jedi? He gets shown how to use a lightsaber in the briefest period on the Millenium Falcon in a New Hope. Ok, maybe there is some additional training off screen during the earlier flight, or during their travels from his home to Mos Eisley... but nothing else on screen. And in that period he goes from "never handled a lightsaber before" (and we don't exactly have any evidence he is much of a fighter before the film starts) to "I can deflect bolts if a i concentrate very hard" and then (with what amounts to barely any more instruction from Obi Wan than "Do It.") to "I can deflect bolts without even seeing the target". By the time of Empire Strikes Back he pulls telekinesis out of nowhere (no one available to train him). He then gets some training (what, a couple days?) with Yoda, but he doesn't even really get any more abilities. In fact the training seems to be more... spiritual in nature, getting to connect better with himself, lose his limitations that his limited thinking create ("Size matters not!" Though of course Yoda is clearly lying there. Apparently Yoda lies... a lot). Then he comes back in RotJ (not having returned to Yoda for further training), able to use the Jedi Mind Trick (with all the training he received in it being seeing Obi-Wan doing it once back in New Hope), and as a bloody bad *** able to take a whole pirate crew pretty much by himself. He also is able then able to beat Darth Vader in a fight (when Vader had been easily beating aside his attacks in Empire).

This compares to Rey, who is implied to be a fighter already, though principly with a staff. Ok, she quite quickly learns how to use the "Mind Trick", but no faster than Luke learns how to use a lightsaber. Then she beats Kylo Ren in a fight. Ok, he is meant to be pretty serious foe, but he has been injured twice already (bowcaster, which has been shown to be pretty deadly, and Finn, just before he was knocked out), and Rey has existing skills to fall back on, unlike Luke. Given how much the Force seems to rely on a belief and openess to it, and given Rey's more open and believing nature... it isn't even surprising. As to the Dark Side not tempting her... were you watching a different film from me?

Ok, yes, this contradicts the prequels quite heavily, with years of training required to become skillful with the Force... but then they already contradicted their own origin material, so which do you go with?

Anakin is a super flawless character?

Luke never tried to strike down his own nephew. What horrified him, and so haunted him, was that he even considered doing it. Am I personally convinced by that storytelling decision? Not necessarily, but I am happy that this would shake Luke down to his core? Yes.

Chewie doesn' tell his friends about Han's death... ok, true. However, I suspect this has more to do with the audience, as 1) Chewie is a secondary character and always has been, so less audience focus and 2) he doesn't talk in English. Yes, they could have had the scene where Chewie barks sorrowfully to his friends, and we only get one half of the conversation. Not the easiest scene to get emotionally invested in.

Lando doesn't appear... yes? He hasn't appeared in all the new films so far. Why would you expect him to feature in this one?

Old Veterans die as side notes: You do realise that for most of the audience these characters are side notes? Yes, Akbar is famous for "it's a trap!" but that is pretty much it for the films. You only get them as more significant characters if you started reading the books etc... and most of those aren't even canon anymore. 

Poe Dameron does indeed make terrible choice after terrible choice. I don't think this was the best handled bit of the film. However, it was in part meant to be a story of him learning what he needed in order to be a proper leader of the resistance, so narratively it makes sense him then becoming the leader... though I will agree it could have been better handled. Particularly amusing seeing as originally the character was going to die in the first film.

Well at least we saw Luke train while we didn’t see Rey train. I’m not saying that I can’t understand your point that Luke might also has learnt the way of the force (too) quickly (for me it was explained well enough)... again I think it comes down to personal taste. However if a decision was poor in the original Triology why does a new  Triology 30+ years later have to make the same mistake?

For Lando I did not specifically mean E8. I was sad that he wasn’t even mentioned in E7 already. After the Movie I thought it would have been great if he could have taken over the part of Benicio del Toros character (not in exactly the same way of course). I’m really looking forward to Solo as Lando will be in it. I have not read any books so I don’t know if the Han - Lando backstory has been told already but this is certainly something I’m excited about.

Old characters as side notes: they might be side notes but when I have a role that kills her/himself heroically why not use a character that at least some people know and not introduce a new side note one? For new audience it doesn’t matter, fans of the old Triology  could have seen it as a fan service. For me this minor decision contributes to my point of the poor handling of characters from the old Triology.

For Chewie and the not able to tell about Hans death my main complain is mostly E7 when he exits the Transporter and walks past Leia who is standing right in front of him without saying anything :(. They just repeated that mistake in E8 when he meets Luke.

With Rey and the not really tempted by the  Dark Side I meant that we see her jump in a cave (like Luke) but then only seeing herself multiple times while Luke faces his Archrival and clearly fails: he takes his weapons (being told not to before) and uses them to realize what will become of him. Maybe I did not get the Rey scene completely but compared to Luke’s it feels not Like temptation at all.

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4 hours ago, Zeelobby said:

Enlisting to make a difference seems too uncharacteristic. I think it's more likely they take the Star Trek reboot approach here. I know. I know. I'm crossing the beams. But I could totally see Solo as a cocky rookie who gets kicked after he disobeys an order, maybe even to save/prevent something bad, but in a cocky way. Then he takes his skills to an alternative profession where cockiness and skills are appreciated. Smuggling.

I do like your idea on betrayal though. I feel like there needs to be a good one. He def has trust issues eventually, so that's gotta stem from somewhere. Not to tap Star Trek again, but abandonment as a child could do it.

I'd have to think that for many the Empire was the only way to do something in the universe. Luke said he hated the Empire but wanted to join the Imperial Academy. As much as we see the Empire as the bad guys of the saga, remember in the universe they made Palpatine the Emperor. As today's political landscape goes you can have a politician who is revered by half the populace and hated by the other half. 

Kasdan said it best: Solo is sarcastic and selfish. It wasn't until the OT that he became somewhat noble and even that can be attributed to his feelings for Leia. As of ESB he was still willing to leave the Rebellion to tie up his own personal issues. He's a good guy at heart but self-preservation has always been his first priority. 

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21 minutes ago, VictoryLeo said:

I'd have to think that for many the Empire was the only way to do something in the universe. Luke said he hated the Empire but wanted to join the Imperial Academy. As much as we see the Empire as the bad guys of the saga, remember in the universe they made Palpatine the Emperor. As today's political landscape goes you can have a politician who is revered by half the populace and hated by the other half. 

Kasdan said it best: Solo is sarcastic and selfish. It wasn't until the OT that he became somewhat noble and even that can be attributed to his feelings for Leia. As of ESB he was still willing to leave the Rebellion to tie up his own personal issues. He's a good guy at heart but self-preservation has always been his first priority. 

Yeah, which is why I don't think many of his initial choices will be "good-guy" driven. I don't see him enlisting for the good of the Empire for example. I see him enlisting so that he can be a pilot and show off his leet skills to other pilots. Probably resulting in expulsion. Washed out, he meets a mentor who gets him into smuggling, etc.

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1 hour ago, Zeelobby said:

Yeah, which is why I don't think many of his initial choices will be "good-guy" driven. I don't see him enlisting for the good of the Empire for example. I see him enlisting so that he can be a pilot and show off his leet skills to other pilots. Probably resulting in expulsion. Washed out, he meets a mentor who gets him into smuggling, etc.

I'm actually hoping for a more morally ambivalent Han Solo. I want the guy who only cares about himself and has no problem pulling the trigger first to protect himself. 

I also want to know what the **** Han did to dirty up the Falcon so much too. :D

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1 hour ago, VictoryLeo said:

I also want to know what the **** Han did to dirty up the Falcon so much too. :D

Well, a single male human living solely in a spaceship that is frequently used to move various cargos of dubious legalities between various planets, which is known for semi-frequently having mechanical issues. I'm sure cleanliness was his highest priority ;).

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5 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Well, a single male human living solely in a spaceship that is frequently used to move various cargos of dubious legalities between various planets, which is known for semi-frequently having mechanical issues. I'm sure cleanliness was his highest priority ;).

Is it bad that I keep thinking of the lines from GotG?:

Gamora: And Quill, your ship is filthy.

Peter Quill: Oh she has no idea. If I had a blacklight, this would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.
 

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21 minutes ago, VictoryLeo said:

Is it bad that I keep thinking of the lines from GotG?:

Gamora: And Quill, your ship is filthy.

Peter Quill: Oh she has no idea. If I had a blacklight, this would look like a Jackson Pollock painting.
 

Tbh, Peter Quill and a younger Han don’t seem too far apart in many ways!

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5 hours ago, VictoryLeo said:

I'd have to think that for many the Empire was the only way to do something in the universe. Luke said he hated the Empire but wanted to join the Imperial Academy. As much as we see the Empire as the bad guys of the saga, remember in the universe they made Palpatine the Emperor. As today's political landscape goes you can have a politician who is revered by half the populace and hated by the other half. 

Kasdan said it best: Solo is sarcastic and selfish. It wasn't until the OT that he became somewhat noble and even that can be attributed to his feelings for Leia. As of ESB he was still willing to leave the Rebellion to tie up his own personal issues. He's a good guy at heart but self-preservation has always been his first priority. 

 

3 hours ago, VictoryLeo said:

I'm actually hoping for a more morally ambivalent Han Solo. I want the guy who only cares about himself and has no problem pulling the trigger first to protect himself. 

I also want to know what the **** Han did to dirty up the Falcon so much too. :D

I'm really hoping we don't see the Han from A New Hope. We need character development to make the story compelling. That's why I hope for a more idealistic Han so that we can see him becoming the guy we meet at the beginning of the new Trilogy. Also this hints towards my predictions being reight: Entertainment Weekly: Solo article

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1 hour ago, LennoxPoodle said:

 

I'm really hoping we don't see the Han from A New Hope. We need character development to make the story compelling. That's why I hope for a more idealistic Han so that we can see him becoming the guy we meet at the beginning of the new Trilogy. Also this hints towards my predictions being reight: Entertainment Weekly: Solo article

Entertainment Weekly has a great follow up article on Harrison Ford's guidance for the film and gives insight to who Han.  

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21 hours ago, Extropia said:

Also, on another note, i want Solo to end with him just starting to work for Jabba.....that would set up things nicely to lead into ANH, much like Rogue One did for Leia (if not quite as immediately).

I am slightly worried they will feature whatever the job was that led to Han being in debt to Jabba. I don't want them to, ending with him starting to work for Jabba would be better, but I think they will want to connect to those things we know about Han pre-film (leaving aside EU stuff!). So, Kessel Run, and debt to Jabba. We already know the weird looking state of the Falcon is being referred to as "The Kessel Run Falcon" by some of the merchandise, so that is pretty much a given. There isn't any reference to Jabba in the trailer (as of yet), and they seem to have revealed their villain and the dude that hires Han, so I guess he possibly won't feature, but I am still expecting it. 

21 hours ago, Zeelobby said:

Enlisting to make a difference seems too uncharacteristic. I think it's more likely they take the Star Trek reboot approach here. I know. I know. I'm crossing the beams. But I could totally see Solo as a cocky rookie who gets kicked after he disobeys an order, maybe even to save/prevent something bad, but in a cocky way. Then he takes his skills to an alternative profession where cockiness and skills are appreciated. Smuggling.

I do like your idea on betrayal though. I feel like there needs to be a good one. He def has trust issues eventually, so that's gotta stem from somewhere.

Not sure cockiness is good for a smuggler, at least a realistic one anyway.

I think it depends on how much they will be taking it from the EU. As I understand it in the pre-film stories in the old Legends stuff it is pretty clear he is quite idealistic, as mentioned he joins the Academy so he can do good as far as he understands it. Then he becomes quite cynical from his experiences, but Luke and his experience reaches his inner core of a hero.

Now, I am not that much convinced by that (The orginal Han Shoots First Han is... quite cold as a character, a little like Connery's Bond, who then opens up, so I definitely saw it as him becoming a hero, not starting as one and it just needing someone to remind him of it). However, aspects of the trailer seem to suggest this. Now, they have the cocky character who just wants to be the best pilot, but the line from Emilia Clarke's character of something like "I know what you really are" (or similar) suggests the implication is that his brashness and cockiness is an act hiding something more underneath... which it is, that is clear from the original films, but not necessarily a "hero". 

16 hours ago, VictoryLeo said:

I'd have to think that for many the Empire was the only way to do something in the universe. Luke said he hated the Empire but wanted to join the Imperial Academy. As much as we see the Empire as the bad guys of the saga, remember in the universe they made Palpatine the Emperor. As today's political landscape goes you can have a politician who is revered by half the populace and hated by the other half. 

Kasdan said it best: Solo is sarcastic and selfish. It wasn't until the OT that he became somewhat noble and even that can be attributed to his feelings for Leia. As of ESB he was still willing to leave the Rebellion to tie up his own personal issues. He's a good guy at heart but self-preservation has always been his first priority. 

I do think the fact they made the Empire so obviously evil is a slight problem... c'mon, these are guys that blow up planets of billions of people as a demonstration of power. It makes them a little hard to be believable as "this is something I think is ok and right." However, in general I agree. I think the idea is meant to be that generally... things are a little more subtle and gradual than that, and yes people will agree with a lot if dressed up the right way, and even those that don't will generally just want to get on with their lives. I could certainly see the majority of the galaxy seeing the Rebellion (until Alderaan at least) as troublemakers who are just rocking the boat, or even as terrorists. This is also why I find the mass celebration scenes at the end of the Special edition RotJ a little unrealistic... much of the Empire would be going "What now?" instead.

Han going to tie up personal issues in Empire: I don't actually see this as showing how self centred he is. Firstly, he has left this "urgent personal issue" for... what? 3 years, spending that time serving with the rebels. Now, this is part obviously down to his personal connection with Luke and Leia, and he hasn't lost his brashness quite yet, but he is starting to identify with the Rebels, just not making it clear yet. Then he also runs back to try and rescue Leia from the base that is being attacked, rather than just take off, which would have been the sensible approach if self-preservation was his first priority.  

16 hours ago, Zeelobby said:

Yeah, which is why I don't think many of his initial choices will be "good-guy" driven. I don't see him enlisting for the good of the Empire for example. I see him enlisting so that he can be a pilot and show off his leet skills to other pilots.

The dialogue from the trailer certainly suggests his motivation is showing off. I guess it all depends why he washes out though. Traditionally I think it has been because he comes to Chewie's rescue, but that remains to be seen in the film.

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I think that Han will try to enlist as a pilot because he genuinely wants to make a difference, wash out, get transferred to the ground pounders, do a horrible tour on mimban where he meets fellow officer Tobias Beckett, mimban is horrible and breaks his idealism, he rescues a wookie slave and deserts.  Skip forward a few years, Han and Chewie are approached by Beckett to help out with a job.

Just my prediction.

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6 hours ago, borithan said:

think the fact they made the Empire so obviously evil is a slight problem... c'mon, these are guys that blow up planets of billions of people as a demonstration of power. It makes them a little hard to be believable as "this is something I think is ok and right." However, in general I agree. I think the idea is meant to be that generally... things are a little more subtle and gradual than that, and yes people will agree with a lot if dressed up the right way, and even those that don't will generally just want to get on with their lives. I could certainly see the majority of the galaxy seeing the Rebellion (until Alderaan at least) as troublemakers who are just rocking the boat, or even as terrorists. This is also why I find the mass celebration scenes at the end of the Special edition RotJ a little unrealistic... much of the Empire would be going "What now?" instead.

I look at it from a logistics of being a Galactic Empire. There's 50 states in the U.S. and we rarely know about the situations going on in other states unless its major news and I'm assuming with hundreds of inhabited worlds anything that's not a galactic event would be brushed aside or ignored with the Empire controllng the media's message.  Heck, Inferno Squad was the first time we really saw a planet that was straight loyal to the Empire. I do love how Rogue One evolved the Rebellion from the scrappy, do-good underdogs to a realistic resistance faction that gets its hands dirty when it needs to.

 

6 hours ago, borithan said:

Han going to tie up personal issues in Empire: I don't actually see this as showing how self centred he is. Firstly, he has left this "urgent personal issue" for... what? 3 years, spending that time serving with the rebels. Now, this is part obviously down to his personal connection with Luke and Leia, and he hasn't lost his brashness quite yet, but he is starting to identify with the Rebels, just not making it clear yet. Then he also runs back to try and rescue Leia from the base that is being attacked, rather than just take off, which would have been the sensible approach if self-preservation was his first priority.  

But was Han's staying with the Rebels up to the start of ESB out of helping the Rebellion out or his connection to Luke and Leia? He did run back to save Leia but he had feelings for her so it was in his interest too to make sure she was safe. I think his full turn was in RotJ when he took the rank of General and you can really see Harrison Ford's point of view that Han sacrificing himself in Jedi would have gave his character more gravitas and redemption. I'm glad he didn't since he's great in TFA but I do see his viewpoint now.

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:40 AM, devin.pike.1989 said:

The term Mary Sue is the dumbest and laziest criticism a person can give.  It means nothing concrete and is usually only used against female characters.

Actually, it is a very valid term. It describes a character that acts as fan service for the author where he puts his creation above the established character and who’s character proves themselves by overshawding the main characters . So by definition Rey and Finn are not Mary Sues. That said you can probably make that argument for Rose and the New Admiral. Oh and it’s not just females, it was done all the time on Star Trek the next generation and was referred to as the Worf effect. 

Edited by DelGriffen

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6 hours ago, DelGriffen said:

Actually, it is a very valid term. It describes a character that acts as fan service for the author where he puts his creation above the established character and who’s character proves themselves by overshawding the main characters . So by definition Rey and Finn are not Mary Sues. That said you can probably make that argument for Rose and the New Admiral. Oh and it’s not just females, it was done all the time on Star Trek the next generation and was referred to as the Worf effect. 

That is not really the definition though. The term is not strictly applied to fan-faction or to sequels written by different authors.  I have seen Rey (star wars),  Brienne of Tarth (a song of ice and fire) and Sgt. Bobby Draper (the expanse) all described as Mary Sues in their original stories.  It is lazy.  

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I’m not disagreeing with you that people are misusing the term or don’t understand the term, I am just stating it has  a place if used correctly. I also agree with you that all the characters you just described are by definition not Mary Sues 

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