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nakala

Action cheating and then retreat

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6 minutes ago, nakala said:

Best example would be a force speed/swiftness into retreat as a first action would i then be able to claim as my extra action?

Retreat ends the action phase after your opponent's action, so you wouldn't be able to claim as your second.

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1 hour ago, nakala said:

So the interpretation is that the opponent take an action in the middle of my turn and not their following turn correct?

Yes, the opponent is taking an action on your turn; Retreat overrides the core rule that you only take an action when its your turn.

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RRG p15:  (extra) Actions wait to be resolved in the order they were created in.

So the sequence is this:  
Force Speed Special (creates 2 actions for active player.
Active action 1:  Play Retreat (creates 1 action for inactive player.  This stacks behind the second action created by Force Speed.
Active action 2:  Claim.
Inactive Action:  Whatever, followed by ending the Action phase.

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31 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

RRG p15:  (extra) Actions wait to be resolved in the order they were created in.

So the sequence is this:  
Force Speed Special (creates 2 actions for active player.
Active action 1:  Play Retreat (creates 1 action for inactive player.  This stacks behind the second action created by Force Speed.
Active action 2:  Claim.
Inactive Action:  Whatever, followed by ending the Action phase.

 I see where you'r coming from but you're ignoring the sentence immediately prior to that one:

 

"Each action, and any abilities its resolution triggers, must fully 
resolve before an additional action is taken. "

Playing the card Retreat requires that an opponent takes one action and the action phase ends in order to fully resolve.

I would say You cannot progress on to the second action until your first action fully resolves, which includes the opponent taking one action. 

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1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

RRG p15:  (extra) Actions wait to be resolved in the order they were created in.

So the sequence is this:  
Force Speed Special (creates 2 actions for active player.
Active action 1:  Play Retreat (creates 1 action for inactive player.  This stacks behind the second action created by Force Speed.
Active action 2:  Claim.
Inactive Action:  Whatever, followed by ending the Action phase.

You failed to quote the sentence before it: Each action, and any abilities its resolution triggers, must fully resolve before an additional action is taken.  So,  the opponent either takes an action or declines and the action phase ends.

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I didn't fail to report anything. That statement is as much true as it is for Force Speed as it is for Retreat.

This comes down to when things enter the queue, when they are resolved, and the exact timing of the game.  Playing retreat creates an effect on the queue.  When that effect resolves, it creates an action for your opponent that has a Then condition attached to it.  But it still gets in line like everything else in the game.  In this case, there is a prior additional action that Force Speed has created yet to be taken.  This action gets taken before the action created by Retreat gets taken.  Retreat has created a delayed effect (p19) keyed to the action your opponent will take when it's that action's turn to resolve.

You're confusing the resolving of Retreat with the resolving of the effect that it creates.

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1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

I didn't fail to report anything. That statement is as much true as it is for Force Speed as it is for Retreat.

This comes down to when things enter the queue, when they are resolved, and the exact timing of the game.  Playing retreat creates an effect on the queue.  When that effect resolves, it creates an action for your opponent that has a Then condition attached to it.  But it still gets in line like everything else in the game.  In this case, there is a prior additional action that Force Speed has created yet to be taken.  This action gets taken before the action created by Retreat gets taken.  Retreat has created a delayed effect (p19) keyed to the action your opponent will take when it's that action's turn to resolve.

You're confusing the resolving of Retreat with the resolving of the effect that it creates.

There is no text in Retreat indicating a delayed effect.  Retreat is resolved when it is played.

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1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

I didn't fail to report anything. That statement is as much true as it is for Force Speed as it is for Retreat.

This comes down to when things enter the queue, when they are resolved, and the exact timing of the game.  Playing retreat creates an effect on the queue.  When that effect resolves, it creates an action for your opponent that has a Then condition attached to it.  But it still gets in line like everything else in the game.  In this case, there is a prior additional action that Force Speed has created yet to be taken.  This action gets taken before the action created by Retreat gets taken.  Retreat has created a delayed effect (p19) keyed to the action your opponent will take when it's that action's turn to resolve.

You're confusing the resolving of Retreat with the resolving of the effect that it creates.

Additional actions go to the end of the current queue. Do you get to take the extra action from ambush before resolving the card that had the ambush keyword? 

You play retreat and your opponent takes an action as the card states. After that action the ‘then’ effect of Retreat triggers, ending the action phase. If you ambush in Retreat, the ambush action enters the queue to follow Retreats resolution, meaning you don’t get the extra action because the phase ended. If your opponent uses their action from Retreat to resolve Force Speed, they get two actions added to after Retreat’s resolution. Which never get used because the action phase ends. 

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17 hours ago, dhowtocor said:

There is no text in Retreat indicating a delayed effect.  Retreat is resolved when it is played.

True, but it follows the normal rules for resolving an effect.  In the example, Force Speed has been used to create 2 actions.  The queue for Force Speed in the example consists of:

Resolve dice (specials).  No before effects.  Resolve Force Speed special, creating 2 actions which wait for the current effect queue to resolve.  No after effects.  Force Speed dice is removed back to it's card.  End queue.

Note, Actions don't happen at the end of the queue...they happen after the current queue has emptied.  Not quite the same thing, as Actions never go in the queue.

Proceed to taking first Force Speed action:  Play a card from hand (Retreat)

Queue starts:  Retreat effect entered into queue.  No before effects.  Resolve Retreat effect, creating an action for you opponent that has the additional effect of "then end the action phase."  Because actions never enter the queue, this action will wait for the current queue to resolve, like all actions do.  And because actions get taken in the order they are created, this action will only get taken after the second Force Speed action, created during the first Resolve Dice action, is taken.  No after effect.  Retreat finishes resolving and goes to the discard.

Second Force Speed action is next to resolve, followed by the Retreat action, which will end the Action phase.  Any actions created during the Second Force Speed action or the Retreat action will be lost.

Retreat in this instance creates a delayed effect, because there is already an action waiting to be taken at the time Retreat creates the new action.  

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1 hour ago, Bigulf said:

Golden Rule?

" If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the game, the text on the card takes precedence. If you can follow both the rules of the game and card text, do so." (RRG pg. 3)

Edited by DenverBurrito

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16 hours ago, DenverBurrito said:

" If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the game, the text on the card takes precedence. If you can follow both the rules of the game and card text, do so." (RRG pg. 3)

There's no conflict. Follow all the timing rules. Retreat is just like any other after effect.  The action it allows follows the rules for extra actions, and there is no Before rule for extra actions.  It will get resolved in the order it was created, which was after both Force Speed actions were created.

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3 hours ago, kingbobb said:

Follow all the timing rules.

Please do.

 

When resolving retreat you must fully resolve it before moving on - your opponent gets an action then the action phase ends. 

What you are trying to do is incorrectly apply the rules by deliberately ignoring the bits you don't like. 

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34 minutes ago, Stu35 said:

Please do.

 

When resolving retreat you must fully resolve it before moving on - your opponent gets an action then the action phase ends. 

What you are trying to do is incorrectly apply the rules by deliberately ignoring the bits you don't like. 

I've submitted a rules question, but I'll try one more time to explain:

Resolving Retreat doesn't mean you get to break the normal timing rules.  Nothing about Retreat says that the action it creates gets to jump in front of the second Force Speed action.  It doesn't enter the queue, because extra actions never enter the queue, they wait for the current queue to finish, and then get taken in the order they were created.

So you resolve Retreat...create an extra action that your opponent may take.  After they do (or not), the Action phase ends.  This action...and the connected then effect...get in line behind the second Force Speed action, because that's what extra actions do.  It creates a delayed effect because of how extra actions work, and the fact that there is a prior-created extra action in line to be taken first when Retreat creates the new action.

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Logic and FFG rulings are often not on speaking terms. Thinking logically sets one up for disappointment. Depending on ones point of view, retreat creates an extra action that would follow behind the second action created by force speed, or retreat forces the new action to be taken and ends the round before force speeds second action. It could go either way but the golden rule does allow for the later to happen even if the one can make a logical case for following the rules in the former. Best thing to do is submit a rules question and depending on who answers will determine the response. If it is asked enough times, it goes to the FAQ and we get official clarity until they change the ruling.

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Kingbob, you are missing something important.

Force speed enters the queue first, that is true, but force speed's ability is "gain" 2 actions.  That is completed immediately.  There is no queue interaction with retreat, because by the time Retreat enters the queue (when you are "spending" your actions), force speed has already exited the queue.  

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So I saw this question and started looking into it, this seems like a pertinent quote from the RRG:

 

••If a player is allowed to take an action outside of their turn,

they immediately take it

 

So this would imply that the opponent takes their free turn granted by retreat straight away and the round is over.

 

Another way to look at this situation is a nested trigger which FFG are so fond of, because Retreat hasn’t actually finished resolving until the action phase is prematurely ended, any actions that are still floating about unresolved (not in THE queue, but in another queue of sorts) cannot begin to be resolved till retreat is finished resolving, and that doesn’t happen until the round is completed, so none of the extra unresolved actions can ever resolve.

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9 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

 

So I saw this question and started looking into it, this seems like a pertinent quote from the RRG:

 

••If a player is allowed to take an action outside of their turn,

they immediately take it

 

So this would imply that the opponent takes their free turn granted by retreat straight away and the round is over.

 

Another way to look at this situation is a nested trigger which FFG are so fond of, because Retreat hasn’t actually finished resolving until the action phase is prematurely ended, any actions that are still floating about unresolved (not in THE queue, but in another queue of sorts) cannot begin to be resolved till retreat is finished resolving, and that doesn’t happen until the round is completed, so none of the extra unresolved actions can ever resolve.

Immediately is also the term applied to extra actions for the active player.  The language for taking an action outside of your turn is "they ALSO must take it immediately or decline to act" (my emphasis)

In both cases, immediately is the term used and applied, so there is no super timing application for actions created for the non-active player.

@Traxlenak, I don't see what Force Speed's queue and Retreat's queue have to do with one another.  The only way for the action created by Retreat to occur before the second Force Speed action is if Retreat somehow allows it's action to skip in front of the Force Speed Action.  Nothing on the card suggests it does that.  And there's no need to invoke the Golden Rule, because there is no conflict:

Basic Rule: 

Actions do no enter the queue.  They wait for the current queue to end, and then are taken in the order they are created.  

Retreat creates an additional action.  In our example, it is the third additional action created during the turn.  Force Speed creates actions 1 and 2.  Retreat (played with action 1) creates action 3.  Before action 3 (and the delayed effect attached to it) can be taken, action 2 must first be taken or declined.  

Try thinking about it a different way:  Let's say we're playing a year from now, and a new keyword has been introduced, called Counter Strike.  Counter Strike is like Ambush, but for you opponent.  It creates an additional action for your opponent.  

So, same situation:  You resolve Force Speed, creating additional actions 1 and 2.  You use action 1 to play a card that has Counter Strike on it.  You resolve the other ability on Counter Strike (which had better be pretty darn spectacular if you're giving your opponent an extra action)...and then, since the card created action 3, does it get in line behind action 2, or does your opponent get to take it because it's part of the card played with action 1?  The only way it can beat action 2 is if actions enter the queue (which they never do), or for some reason it gets to skip the line.  And with the rules as they are today, there's no reason to think that this action, or any other action, gets to skip the additional action line.  

 

 

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@Mace Windu Yeah.... FFG doesn't actually know what immediately means. What they mean by that is during that turn, not another turn. Most people look at that word and think do the action before the current action is resolved. The question is can retreat reorder the actions and bump force speeds second action behind the retreat action. If not, then something like force speed can cheat the intended use of that card. FFG can always say, golden rule, no cheating that card. Otherwise Kingbobb is doing an excellent job of explaining the rules on how actions are taken.

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The inherent problem is that retreat hasn't finished resolving till the round has ended. the extra action for your opponent has to happen as part of the resolution of retreat for it to work properly, and any other actions that are waiting to resolve are lost.

Simply put, any actions already created and waiting to resolve (i.e. the second action from force speed special) cant resolve till retreat is resolved, and once retreat is resolved the round has ended.

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