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Regionals data, Feb 3, 2018

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13 hours ago, Thrindal said:

This is correct, I almost dropped the Comms Net.  The main reason I kept it was to pass Squad tokens early so if the Gozanti gets out of activation range I can still activate a squad with the other ships.  It occasionally would pass a Nav or Engineering during a game too but not often.  I'd call it a luxury item that could easily be dropped if you wanted to improve your bid.


Sounds like you aren't using Relay like a good Imperial. 

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5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Not to rush y'all but did we get stats for the other 2 regionals? 

Gonna see how they add up to the data of Wave6. 

 

Dras got the hothgary results, but needs time to type them up.  FFG HQ has about half a dozen lists out of 25, I think.

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57 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Not to rush y'all but did we get stats for the other 2 regionals? 

Gonna see how they add up to the data of Wave6. 

 

The whole lot will be done tomorrow night. I have a one night break in my graveyard shift, and I have no computer during daylight hours.

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31 minutes ago, reegsk said:

Yeah, I feel the Gallant Haven version is too defensive, and doesn’t help unless you run into a solid squadron build. The Pelta REALLY helps move those squads, and fast.

Yeah. The pelta variant is more offensive and mobile. 

Gallant Haven version is a response to lots of Rieekan aces in the meta: It beats other max squad lists. Its a mirror match specialist. 

1 hour ago, Democratus said:

It's so much fun to see all the diversity in the tournament lists. Even the AceHoles list didn't have Gallant Haven.

Hooray meta! 

 

I don't know if you mean this by a joke... but the absense of a medium ship from a preponderance of 129+ squad lists over 10 tournaments is not what I'd consider diversity. 

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On 2/4/2018 at 5:30 PM, Undeadguy said:

Right, Tarkin and Sovereign are essentially the same thing, besides the range and number restriction. Maybe use Sovereign first to clear the way for the Tarkin command? Idk, it seems silly and expensive.

grand-moff-tarkin.pngsovereign.png

Tarkin / Sovereign is a stupid fun combination.  Basically, it is the Tarkin that Tarkin should have been from the beginning.  Get the token you want.

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Another use of Tarkin is to show where a token is very close to a dial in power: Ex: Using Tarkin with a bunch of 1-2 squadron value ships to mass activate your squadrons kind of 1 by one. I did this as a funzies list (mostly because, while its efficienct in theory... the lack of alpha in real life makes it not good in many situations.) 

Gladiators pushing squads, and running FCT. Its freaking hilarious. And so much fun. 

 

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1 hour ago, Democratus said:

It's so much fun to see all the diversity in the tournament lists. Even the AceHoles list didn't have Gallant Haven.

Hooray meta!

You're joking, right?  Every single one of these lists spent over 250 points in ships and spent <50% of their points on upgrades.  Not only that, but nearly every single ship that had a Weapons Team slot available filled it.  And do you know where the two exceptions were?  10/11 and 11/11.

Weapons Teams are broken as ****, please nerf.

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38 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. The pelta variant is more offensive and mobile. 

Gallant Haven version is a response to lots of Rieekan aces in the meta: It beats other max squad lists. Its a mirror match specialist. 

I don't know if you mean this by a joke... but the absense of a medium ship from a preponderance of 129+ squad lists over 10 tournaments is not what I'd consider diversity. 

He’s not talking about over 10 tournaments...

Hes making a comment on the difference between those previous ones and the ones of this weekend thus far.

 

Now I don’t want to comment on the validity of that , but I do think that there is a difference of opinion there... You certainly have a diversity goal in mind, and that’s applaudable, but as much as we have not reached it yet, there is some progress moved towards it, at least a little visibly...

It may not be Diverse. But there is more diversity than there was.

 

i mean? Maybe? That’s the impression I pick up anyway, mate - but I admit to have read your opinions wrong before ?

Edited by Drasnighta

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24 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

You're joking, right?  Every single one of these lists spent over 250 points in ships and spent <50% of their points on upgrades.  Not only that, but nearly every single ship that had a Weapons Team slot available filled it.  And do you know where the two exceptions were?  10/11 and 11/11.

Weapons Teams are broken as ****, please nerf.

But.. But.. what about my lone Raider? ;)))))))

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

It may not be Diverse. But there is more diversity than there was.

We are one weekend into a new meta.  I don't think we can call the meta diverse yet, lol.  The beauty is that in a game like this, the meta can take months and months to solidify in just a single region, it never really solidifies worldwide.  I think if the release cycle was sped up just a tad, we would hit that perfect point of content.  Maybe June/November release times?

I'm really hoping that at some point FFG seasons out titles and releases new sets for ships.  The extra budget from being faction,unique, and requiring a ship gives interesting effects, but they tend to range from auto-include to garbage with very little in the middle.  I think the most difficult thing about a game is convincing players to let go of their shines for competitive play at some point, it's the only way to get diversity though.

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This gets lost sometimes in the feeling that I only think negative things about this game and its meta, however: This game is complicated enough that some variance in play style actually can overcome pure mathematical efficiency. This bodes well for being able to take many many things in a competitive setting. 

I tend to hope though that old builds stay somewhat competitive. People like their old shinies. Currently its just a matter of finding ways to make old cards/ships/squads that aren't very good more relevant in niche ways. 
The second part would be to introduce more way of looking at the game or playing the game that aren't high efficiency/damage based. Interdictor movement is one example (its just typically considered too weak), Strategic squadrons (except, these tend to also still be snowball-y more effective in a maxed out min-max 134 fighter list). Raid, boarding teams. These are all nice new innovations. 

I really wish they'd figure out a way to remove how much an impact how many squads you take has on your winrate in this game, and the whole triangle theory problem. (Do note: taking no squads currently is a good way to get a decent winrate too in a way... And taking max squads is even better, by a very large margin =] ) 

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I know you guys tend to disagree with Blail and his typical “doom and gloom”, but in this instance... he’s not wrong... Maxed fighters are maxed fighters, and I wouldn’t call one bomber group “diverse” from another one just because they used different squads to make up their wing...

Barring Ard’s Mothma 30’s, it’s nigh impossible to go squadronless these days and do well (I mean, you CAN, but you need to either dodge max bombers in matchups, or roll suuuuuuper slow to force them to come to you so that you can pump as much flak as possible into the squads themselves, at which point they will retreat to the station)

”Rush the carriers” used to be a viable option, but with relay and flotillas running away, that will rarely work anymore. 

Light fighter coverage can sometimes work (I frequently use 6 ties as my barebones fighter coverage)- but this is often in conjunction with a large base or two that can flak and still take whatever attacks left over on hull after your squads get eliminated. If I’m looking at taking only small bases without Mothma, I NEED one or more of the following-

a large fighter compliment of my own

2+ more activations than my opponent

a large bid to take first or second away, depending on what the fighter list wants.

Don’t take this as a “Armada is dead we all need to panic!” post, because it’s not. Fighters ARE Star Wars, and SHOULD be an integral part of this game. But should they be the be all end all of min/maxing? Point for point they provide the best firepower to hull ratio, and are **** hard to kill when played correctly. 

In the words of the exhalted BrobaFett- “when Morna is a better, more durable, combat ship than a Raider or Nebulon for a fraction of the cost its just not worth it to bring ships.That doesn't even address what an Adar Yavaris Luke can do.”

We all play this game for capital ships. It’s why we play this over x-wing. But increasingly fighters are the ultimate path to victory. Sure, you can win squadronless or with minimal fighters, but you sure as heck are fighting a tougher battle than the guy who can double tap b-wings from across the board, effectively hitting you with an mc30 double arc in individual attacks from a platform that can shrug off most attacks against it, while keeping your actual “combat” ships safe... 

8/10 regionals being won by (almost) maxed squads is telling. I tried to bring squadronless double larges to a regionals and did quite well until I pulled aceholes in the final matchup. Were mistakes made on my end? Most definitely. I play that game over and over in my head thinking of what I could have done differently, and honestly don’t see any way I could have gotten better than a 6-5 win by just running away and trying to kill an errant flotilla or squad in the final round- and even that might not have worked- I had an ISD go down to bombers in a single round each- that’s a problem in my book. Playing a maxed squads list these days it’s incredibly difficult to lose by more than a 5-6, but astonishingly easy to win by a 10-1. Squadronless fleets can also get 10-1’s, but on the flip side they can also BE 1-10’d, so it’s an actual gamble- max squads don’t run that risk

Edited by MandalorianMoose

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16 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I really wish they'd figure out a way to remove how much an impact how many squads you take has on your winrate in this game

I was surprised (and relieved) that no one took Early Warning System, honestly. The biggest need in my list was that Yavaris double-tap with bombers to kill anything big. If you can choose an arc that cuts the bomber damage output in half (or removes it, in the case of Wedge and Luke), you're forcing your opponent to maneuver their squadrons with Yavaris's activations rather than double-tap. Is it still rough? Yes, but it's no worse than facing a bomber heavy list without Yavaris in it. My list would go from effectively having seven bombers down to four, and reduce maximum damage from nineteen to fifteen. Still not great, but that's a big difference (and assuming max rolls on all ships the entire time).

 

Honestly, the biggest threat to a Yavaris list is a single, fast ship. An MC30c or Raider can double-arc a Neb-B and kill it. If you're running dual ISDs and you bring a Raider-I along, give it Instigator, Sensor Teams and ExRacks. It can slow down bombers with its title, and be a serious threat to flotillas and Yavaris. And I'm sure you're thinking, "But the bombers will just kill it!" Yes, yes they will. And it's being closely followed by two Speed 3 ISDs with Early Warning System, and the bombers have lost at least one (hopefully two) rounds of bombing them to kill the raider. Worst case scenario, you go up against a no-squads list. Your ISDs are still Obstructed against ships, and your Raider can run around popping floats (because, let's be honest, every list has at least one flotilla).

 

EDIT - And MM, I don't disagree with you. While I think fighters and bombers are very, very Star Wars (both Death Stars and countless ISDs have been killed by fighters alone), the way they're included in the game is unbalancing. Relay is very, very powerful as-is. But we also haven't seen how the new upgrades will impact that meta. Regardless, however, I think number of flotillas DEFINITELY needs to be curtailed. Either a hard cap of three, or a 1:1 ratio with non-flotillas.

Edited by reegsk

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45 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Barring Ard’s Mothma 30’s, it’s nigh impossible to go squadronless these days and do well (I mean, you CAN, but you need to either dodge max bombers in matchups, or roll suuuuuuper slow to force them to come to you so that you can pump as much flak as possible into the squads themselves, at which point they will retreat to the station)

I would respectfully but strongly disagree with this statement as it doesn't correlate with my experience.

45 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Squadronless fleets can also get 10-1’s, but on the flip side they can also BE 1-10’d, so it’s an actual gamble- max squads don’t run that risk

I guess that depends of the fleet. Again from my experience it's nearly impossible to get a 1-10 loss with a good double ISD fleet.

 

13 minutes ago, reegsk said:

If you're running dual ISDs and you bring a Raider-I along, give it Instigator, Sensor Teams and ExRacks.

Well, if you're mentioning double ISD list, I would say that this Raider configuration would be a mistake. There are two reasons - points (double ISD lists are scraping every point from the bottom of the pot to have decent upgrades on those ISDs) and Raider cost (it's going to be lost, so its better to keep it light and save the points). I'm not convinced EWS is going to be a right upgrade on the ISD simply because ISD side arcs are short and there are many positions where a ship or a commanded squadron has a choice of an arc to attack.

Edited by PT106

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