Solo Trailer to Drop on SuperBowl

[Jo Jo 4,808]

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

 

 

 

The one thing TPM got right, a puppet Yoda!

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

Hey, @Azrapse, you make some good points. I wasn't trying to imply that there aren't people who just legitametely don't like the movie, and I'm glad to have found someone with actual thought and reasoning.

But I never called you a bigot or a Hitler. I think everybody (myself included) needs to be careful what we accuse people of. All I meant by my post was that when it comes down to it, not even a truly bad Star Wars movie like the Christmas Special has people who go this far out of their way to bag on it, so there has to be, at least for some of the people who don't like it, an ulterior motive. 

Anyway, I'm glad you have so much actual reasoning behind your thinking. I'm not sure debates work well on the Internet (I've already had three or four TLJ debates on these forums alone that ended in people internet-screaming at me despite me trying to be calm about it). But I have to say that I'd probably actually like to meet you in real life and have a conversation about the movie, because I feel like that would actually be a good conversation. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Kieransi

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Once. When apologize was spelled correctly. 

..you mean with an "s" instead of a "z"?

[Dabirdisdaword 466]

13 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

..you mean with an "s" instead of a "z"?

I uh... I wonder if that's like the colour/color thing

[markcsoul 2,135]

12 hours ago, markcsoul said:

This is the reason stuff like this should get put into the Off Topic section.  Besides being x-wing unrelated, the threads just turn into big fights. 

The mods keep moving them there after the damage has been done.

Well whaddya know

[Sekac 3,506]

42 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

..you mean with an "s" instead of a "z"?

Now, see, its this kind of obstinance that will keep us from ever resolving our differences. I'll adopt the metric system if you guys quit with your silly spellings, deal? 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Sekac

[Scopes 530]

9 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Many people dislike that movie, not because political or ideological reasons, but because of how purists they are with the Star Wars tradition. 
Calling these people haters and accusing them of not liking the movie because of ideological reasons is a form of Reductio ad Hitlerum. 
"Bigots don't like TLJ. You don't like TLJ? Then you are a bigot".

That is a fallacy I wish people stopped using because it's a way to belittle the criticism of a great many other people with disrespect.
It's like calling people names because they disagree with your tastes.

 

What TLJ does that triggers so many purist people (not counting bigots), is that it follows with pride Kylo Ren's slogan "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Star Wars has always had cheap philosophy and Chinese cracker morale messages. But at least these wisdom pills have been a digest version of commonly agreed ethics and and traditional wisdom:

• Stay true to yourself. Follow your feelings, but don't go yourself unprepared or your will suffer.
• The hero's journey.
• Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.
• Know your enemy. Know yourself. Learn, learn, learn.

And so many others that we have got from millennia of western and eastern culture.

TLJ (and TFA) come to subvert most of them, just for the sake of subverting them.

• Characters do all the time irrational stuff, or act totally against what anyone would consider the right way to behave (Luke's and Finn's cowardice, Poe insubordination, Holdo's hermetism, Yoda's untruthfulness to himself). Rey's reckless decision to meet Kylo at Snoke's ship (a mirror of Luke skipping Dagobah's training and metting Vader at Cloud City) ends, all in all, in a huge success for her. She suffer no ill consequence at all.
• There is no hero's journey, the main protagonist and antagonist are more powerful than anyone ever has been before, from the get go. They don't learn anything in their journey that they didn't already know from the beginning.
• The movie happily pushes the concept of "ignore the past" again and again, against all common sense. Old achievements are undone, old characters are undone (both in personality and physically), old stories are rendered pointless, old experience and knowledge is belittled.
  The movie is a constant celebration of "What is new is best, what is old is crap", that is basically a reflection of one of the worst kind of decadent attitudes people, and society in general, can have. This movies encourages this attitude again and again, to the point of fans repeating that sentence everywhere, even in this same thread.
  People, "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" perhaps sounds cool to you, but it's an incredibly poisonous and self-destructive ethos. We aren't what our kids grow beyond! We are what we come from.
  We are in a time in our society when ignorance is celebrated, (look at our politicians, our TV, our school system, our news media; and I'm not even mentioning any country in particular) and this movie just embraces the zeitgeist.
• Following the previous point, the celebration of ignorance. In this movie, talent is everything! Everyone is special! One doesn't become great by training or studying anymore. One is great from the beginning, or not. Those that don't have the talent, are depicted as losers.
  Newton said that being a genius is 10% inspiration, 90% transpiration (sweating, as from hard working).
  The characters in this movie are 110% inspiration. Everything is handed to them from the beginning and they outclass anyone else before them. TLJ's Yoda makes fun of the Jedi texts and burns them. The classic Master Yoda is spinning in his grave. What master would encourage their pupils to ignore the knowledge and instead throw themselves into the wild beyond just wielding their innate talent? A really bad one, I can tell you.
   

This movie has an audience, of course it does.
This movie is tailor-made for today's masses. When the Moon's landing is questioned as fake. When people are tired of experts. When scientific vocations are declining all around the world. When some of the most watched entertainment is talent shows. When flat Earth theories are increasing in acceptance. When vaccination is questioned by ignorant parents and long eradicated diseases are coming back to our schools. A time of consumerism and programmed obsolescence. Throw away the old, embrace the new.

It goes against core values in our culture heritage that have been there for centuries, and that original Star Wars transmitted, as part of our cultural production.
This is why this movie feels like something else. Something alien and forced against the Star Wars tradition.

I am fine with debating these points. Unless the response to this is calling me bigot.

Bingo. Getting tired of being labeled as a "hater". Alinsky would be proud of all the ones who throw that word at people they disagree with. Nothing kills debate or discussion like name calling. 

[Dabirdisdaword 466]

21 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Now, see, its this kind of obstinance that will keep us from ever resolving our differences. I'll adopt the metric system if you guys quit with your silly spellings, deal? 

You say that like adopting metric helps anyone but yourselves. 

'Murica the land of bad english and inefficient math.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Dabirdisdaword

[SabineKey 6,348]

9 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Many people dislike that movie, not because political or ideological reasons, but because of how purists they are with the Star Wars tradition. 
Calling these people haters and accusing them of not liking the movie because of ideological reasons is a form of Reductio ad Hitlerum. 
"Bigots don't like TLJ. You don't like TLJ? Then you are a bigot".

That is a fallacy I wish people stopped using because it's a way to belittle the criticism of a great many other people with disrespect.
It's like calling people names because they disagree with your tastes.

 

What TLJ does that triggers so many purist people (not counting bigots), is that it follows with pride Kylo Ren's slogan "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Star Wars has always had cheap philosophy and Chinese cracker morale messages. But at least these wisdom pills have been a digest version of commonly agreed ethics and and traditional wisdom:

• Stay true to yourself. Follow your feelings, but don't go yourself unprepared or your will suffer.
• The hero's journey.
• Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.
• Know your enemy. Know yourself. Learn, learn, learn.

And so many others that we have got from millennia of western and eastern culture.

TLJ (and TFA) come to subvert most of them, just for the sake of subverting them.

• Characters do all the time irrational stuff, or act totally against what anyone would consider the right way to behave (Luke's and Finn's cowardice, Poe insubordination, Holdo's hermetism, Yoda's untruthfulness to himself). Rey's reckless decision to meet Kylo at Snoke's ship (a mirror of Luke skipping Dagobah's training and metting Vader at Cloud City) ends, all in all, in a huge success for her. She suffer no ill consequence at all.
• There is no hero's journey, the main protagonist and antagonist are more powerful than anyone ever has been before, from the get go. They don't learn anything in their journey that they didn't already know from the beginning.
• The movie happily pushes the concept of "ignore the past" again and again, against all common sense. Old achievements are undone, old characters are undone (both in personality and physically), old stories are rendered pointless, old experience and knowledge is belittled.
  The movie is a constant celebration of "What is new is best, what is old is crap", that is basically a reflection of one of the worst kind of decadent attitudes people, and society in general, can have. This movies encourages this attitude again and again, to the point of fans repeating that sentence everywhere, even in this same thread.
  People, "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to" perhaps sounds cool to you, but it's an incredibly poisonous and self-destructive ethos. We aren't what our kids grow beyond! We are what we come from.
  We are in a time in our society when ignorance is celebrated, (look at our politicians, our TV, our school system, our news media; and I'm not even mentioning any country in particular) and this movie just embraces the zeitgeist.
• Following the previous point, the celebration of ignorance. In this movie, talent is everything! Everyone is special! One doesn't become great by training or studying anymore. One is great from the beginning, or not. Those that don't have the talent, are depicted as losers.
  Newton said that being a genius is 10% inspiration, 90% transpiration (sweating, as from hard working).
  The characters in this movie are 110% inspiration. Everything is handed to them from the beginning and they outclass anyone else before them. TLJ's Yoda makes fun of the Jedi texts and burns them. The classic Master Yoda is spinning in his grave. What master would encourage their pupils to ignore the knowledge and instead throw themselves into the wild beyond just wielding their innate talent? A really bad one, I can tell you.
   

This movie has an audience, of course it does.
This movie is tailor-made for today's masses. When the Moon's landing is questioned as fake. When people are tired of experts. When scientific vocations are declining all around the world. When some of the most watched entertainment is talent shows. When flat Earth theories are increasing in acceptance. When vaccination is questioned by ignorant parents and long eradicated diseases are coming back to our schools. A time of consumerism and programmed obsolescence. Throw away the old, embrace the new.

It goes against core values in our culture heritage that have been there for centuries, and that original Star Wars transmitted, as part of our cultural production.
This is why this movie feels like something else. Something alien and forced against the Star Wars tradition.

I am fine with debating these points. Unless the response to this is calling me bigot.

This was an interesting read and I wanted to offer some counter points, trying to go by bullet point.

~*Point 1*~
While irrational isn't inaccurate in some cases, I feel there is a better descriptor: desperate. Characters in the movie are under pressure and a time limit, so some one in a million shots are taken. In fact, most Star Wars movies have this in common. Where they differ is that in the older movies, fate smiles on the one in a million shot and everything is saved (see Deathstar trench run, getting the Deathstar plans, attacking the Deathstar 2, etc)! I actually find it refreshing that the odds were not ever in the favor of the heroes. They made long shot gambles that failed. Not unlike Luke's rescue attempt on Bespin. In both cases, the hero gets bloodied in some way, but survives to learn. 
Now, I would like to go case by case of the examples you gave of people not behaving right.
Luke's cowardice: I do not believe this is cowardice. What Luke exhibits can better be described as jaded. He has isolated himself due to a massive amount of guilt and a huge crisis of faith. He had discovered that the thing he had devoted his life to (being a Jedi) was flawed and propagated a cycle of violence. His speech against legends applies to both himself and the Jedi. They were held up on a pedestal, but were just as likely to ire as anyone else. If you look back at Episode 2, you even see Yoda bemoan the increasing arrogance among Jedi. In the end, what exiled Luke was the realization that the perfection that he thought he had as a Jedi and a legend was a lie. He was still human.
Finn's cowardice: Again, I don't think this is cowardice. Since TFA, we have seen Finn's lack of drive to fight the First Order comes from a lack of motive. When we first meet him, he has no reason to fight that can out do the hopeless feeling he has that the First Order will win. That changes when Rey is captured, after which he volunteers to go on what is most likely a suicide mission in order for a chance to save someone he cares about. In TLJ, that doesn't change. His plan to leave was about keeping Rey from coming back and getting caught. And he only made this plan after the Resistance's situation went to critical. Then he was caught by Rose and a new plan formed, one that he got on board with, even though the risk to himself was great. He even gave he beacon to Poe to look after. As he ventures around with Rose, you see him gain more prospective on the situation, and understanding that evil was everywhere and had to be stood up to.
Poe's insubordination: This can be traced to what we know of the character. we have already established that he can be hotheaded and thinking more in short term rather than long term. This makes sense as he is a fighter pilot, who generally need to make split second, life or death decisions and are generally tasked with just worrying about the assignments at hand. Now, factor that into the losses he is dealing with (the majority of the fighter squadrons), a sense of helplessness as he is stuck on a ship with nothing to do, and the person he trusted to lead him (Leia) is possibly dying and replaced by someone he doesn't know. Put it all together and you have a problem brewing. And it all stems from what Leia was scolding him about near the beginning of the movie. He's a hero who has yet to learn that the right decision or course of action isn't always the most heroic. Was Poe completely justified in his actions? No, but I understand how he got there. And because of this, he had to grow.
Holdo's hermetism: (Note: I am not familiar with the term, though I believe you are referring to Holdo not telling people her plan. If this is true, read on. If not, skip this point. If I've misinterpreted your meaning, I would greatly appreciate feedback.) On this point, I have mixed feelings. It has actually been interesting seeing both former and active military comment on her, as I have seen both derision and support for her actions from them. I personally feel she had some inconsistencies and could have been handled better. So, this point to you.
Yoda's untruthfulness to himself: This one I'm not getting at all. What do you mean by untruthfulness to himself?
Rey's reckless decision: In the end, how was Rey's decision any less reckless than Luke's decision to surrender himself to Vader in the hopes of turning him? ****, that's why Rey went to Kylo in the first place, because she was trying to do what Luke did. It is because I liken her actions as more akin to RotJ Luke and not ESB Luke that I don't see a problem. Luke didn't really have an ill consequence for his action either. 

~*Point 2*~
I disagree that they didn't learn anything. Rey learned to stop looking for a savior and step up herself. Kylo went from being manipulated by Snoke to believing he is now the master, fully embracing his "kill the past" quote. Poe learned to step back and look at the bigger picture, and that the  heroes path wasn't always heroic. Finn discovered a reason to care about the fight against the First Order and that even while he had felt it was hopeless, it was still worth standing against. And, last but not least, Luke learned to accept his failures and came to understand that good even something flawed can be worthwhile and inspire others. 

~*Point 3*~
I disagree that the message "ignore the past" was the point. You only ever really hear that kind of sentiment from Kylo, who's the villain. In the end, I feel the movie is about learning from the past while accepting he future. In the end, Rey rejected Kylo's call to kill the past. Everything points to her continuing on under the mantle of Jedi. I have hopes that we'll see in her a form of reformation of the Jedi, stripping away the fallacies and arrogance of the past, and bringing back sight to true balance. Also remember that we can see the old Jedi texts on the Falcon, indicating that there wisdom is still valued and can be learned from. 
You are right that the "kill the past" message is dangerous, but remember who is saying it. I don't think Kylo is suppose to be a role model. 
What I took from TLJ was a sense of stepping up. The past should be remembered, but it is also the past. The past can't save you, you must step up and take responsibility. I believe that to be an important message.

~*Point 4*~
If you are going to talk about "talent over learned skill", then you need to take a closer look back at the older Star Wars movies. The prequels definitely have it (see chosen one Anakin), but it can also be found in the OT. Farm boy Luke who got his flight experience flying an air speeder in atmo suddenly can fly a military star fighter better than some of the veterans who flew with him. We also have Luke, with spotty and incomplete training, taking out Darth Vader, who's killed dozens of Jedi Masters. It's not like this kind of thing is something new to the sequels. Talent trumping experience has been in Star Wars all along. 
In fact, I'd go so far as to say TLJ builds something important onto the Star Wars message. With Rey being a "nobody", it shows it's not about bloodline that makes greatness, a message you can get if you take the OT and the prequels together. It's like the meaning behind what Chef Gusteau's quote in Ratatouille. Not anybody can be a good chef, but a good chef could be anybody. 
As for the Yoda point, Yoda didn't burn the books. As I said before, you can see them on the Falcon in a later scene. The way I interpret Yoda burning he tree is him doing it for Luke's benefit, to shock him into listening and opening up to the truth. He mocks the books, but doesn't deny they have wisdom. It's like a text book. It can have valuable information, but can be boring as heck to get through. This also builds on an idea I've mentioned before in that the Jedi were in need of a reformation. If you look at the history of our world particularly at some of the various religions out there (which the Jedi Order is likened to), you will see a pattern of reformation. People have to take a step back and clear the clutter that has build up  around a good core. Remember, those books on the Falcon are the _original_ texts, not the interpretations of later Jedi, even Yoda himself. Those texts were written in a time when Jedi had a better understanding about balance, and not puffed up on the power and respect the Jedi of the Old Republic enjoyed. 
This also feeds into something Luke said. Let's say Rey didn't have the Jedi texts. Maybe she doesn't take the mantle of Jedi. That doesn't meant the Light is dead. Just as something new came from the Dark to replace the Sith, something new would have come to champion the Light in the absence of Jedi. 

~*Closing*~
Here, I would like to clarify somethings about myself and my argument. 
Firstly, I enjoyed the movie despite its flaws and I do not resemble the list of things you out near the end of your post. Just as you ask not to be shoehorned with the title "bigot", I too ask for more understanding that people who like he movie might be more like you than you think. 
Secondly, this is based on what I took away from the movie. You obviously took away something different. And if my testimony on the matter does not alter your opinion, so be it. It's yours to have and art is subjective. I do hope, that at the least, that this will show that fans of the movie aren't blind or wanting to "kill the past". In the end, the classic Obi-Wan line applies here quite well. "So what I told you was true. From a certain point of view." 
And lastly, I hope this covered most of your points. I know I missed a few and probably missed others too. I hope I did not come off as dismissive or overly confrontational. Just as you posted to clarify your position (at least, that's what you seemed to be doing), I wanted to clarify mine, trying to use your post to get to specific points rather than speak in general terms. Thank you for bringing this up so a discussion could happen. 

@RufusDaMan, I hope I didn't steal your thunder and would like to offer my condolences about the funeral. 

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

41 minutes ago, Scopes said:

Bingo. Getting tired of being labeled as a "hater". Alinsky would be proud of all the ones who throw that word at people they disagree with. Nothing kills debate or discussion like name calling. 

I agree that calling people haters is a terrible way to try to win an argument. It doesn't work. 

But I'd also just like to fact-check you here and point out that nobody used the word "hater" in this thread. 

In addition, there are people who are doggedly convinced that they hate every single part of TLJ and that it's a thouroughly wretched piece of rubbish with no redeeming features. And then there's those who take that even another step further by refusing to allow another person to have a different opinion on the movie. It's hard to not label those people as haters or think that they must have some sort of political ulterior motive.

Because I admit that even a movie that I thought was a steaming pile of manure, the Christmas Special, had a kind of cool animated segment in the middle. Refusing to admit that even one, tiny part of the movie was any good is just as ridiculous as refusing to admit that there's no single thing wrong with the movie. I haven't met anyone who likes this movie more than me, and even I will admit that it has a few things I would've done differently. So likewise, I think someone who absolutely did not like this movie should still be able to find something good about it.

[Marinealver 8,073]

Early PReview

 

[Hobojebus 11,341]

On 02/02/2018 at 5:41 PM, Dabirdisdaword said:

You say that like adopting metric helps anyone but yourselves. 

'Murica the land of bad english and inefficient math.

Maths, there's a sodding S at the end!!!!!

[Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun 9,498]

Tease

 

Tease 2

[Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun 9,498]

That’s where the big game is getting played.    

[LordFajubi 1,308]

Blue 32! Blue 32! Utinni!

["Quickdraw" 58]

Don't watch star wars movies thinking that much, dont watch them as if u were grown ups watch it as a child and enjoy.

[Demon4x4 222]

Super Bowl Teaser Trailer

[Sekac 3,506]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:49 PM, Hobojebus said:

Maths, there's a sodding S at the end!!!!!

In this one instance, for no goddamn reason at all.

Just like studying:

Philosophies

Theologies

Geologies

Physicses

Engineerings

Economies

And grammars.

You know, all these disciplines that are obviously pluralized all the time because it makes sense.

Or are math nerds just making it quantitatively clear that there is more than one math equation? "Hey everyone, we're more than '1+1=2' ya know." Seems thirsty.

Or are we supposed to remember that "maths" is the correct way to abbreviate mathematics? It's like arguing that "innit" is the correct way to abbreviate "isn't it."

Why, would anyone agree that's correct?

[Admiral Deathrain 5,232]

That sequence with the star destroyer looks really impressive! The music is kinda bad, though. Still very indifferent about this movie, but I'll go see it if just for that star destroyer visual.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

5 hours ago, Sekac said:

In this one instance, for no goddamn reason at all.

Just like studying:

Philosophies

Theologies

Geologies

Physicses

Engineerings

Economies

And grammars.

You know, all these disciplines that are obviously pluralized all the time because it makes sense.

Or are math nerds just making it quantitatively clear that there is more than one math equation? "Hey everyone, we're more than '1+1=2' ya know." Seems thirsty.

Or are we supposed to remember that "maths" is the correct way to abbreviate mathematics? It's like arguing that "innit" is the correct way to abbreviate "isn't it."

Why, would anyone agree that's correct?

Because it's spelt maths innit.

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

6 hours ago, Sekac said:

In this one instance, for no goddamn reason at all.

Just like studying:

Physicses

You mean Physics?

6 hours ago, Sekac said:

Economies

...and Economics?

..................anyway, trailer looks OK, head and shoulders above The Least Jedi so far.

[Sekac 3,506]

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

You mean Physics?

...and Economics?

..................anyway, trailer looks OK, head and shoulders above The Least Jedi so far.

It was a joke. You know jokes, right?

["Quickdraw" 58]

we've all seen that weird tie.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

2 hours ago, "Quickdraw" said:

we've all seen that weird tie.

I haven't and won't until the eventual Ffg article.